Diana: 0:00

If you respond appropriately and ask compassionate you're going to you're going to be able to draw out more and help them.

Heather: 0:13

I'm Heather Ruth Pack, and this is The Approachable Jesus, a of Faith production. Jesus can feel distant. The people of the Bible lived in a different world, a time, but their times of faith weren't all that different ours. And that's what we're going to talk about. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to The Approachable Jesus. I'm Heather Ruth Pack, and today we're talking about what it's like to deliver truth, whether the people want to hear it And my guest is Diana Lacey, and she is a dear friend of And thank you for joining us, Diana. I'm excited to be here, Heather. I know it's been a long time coming for you and I to get with a couple microphones, right?

Diana: 0:55

That's right.

Heather: 0:58

So let me tell everyone a little bit about Diana. She's a researcher and an author who is passionately committed to fostering healing within a faith community. Her work uniquely addresses the nuances of spiritual abuse the LDS context, offering a compassionate path for victims to find healing and consider a renewed connection with their faith. Diana holds a Bachelor of Science in Family Studies from Young University. She contributed her expertise to a research team at BYU, specifically on unrighteous dominion and spiritual abuse. Diana has been happily married to her husband Mike, almost years. That's amazing.

Diana: 1:42

46 years.

Heather: 1:44

And together they are the proud parents of six children and adoring grandparents to 16 grandchildren. And one is on the way. Yes, November. In November. That's that's awesome. The number changes much rapidly for you than it does for me.

Diana: 2:01

I know. I know. It's it's slowing down a little bit, slowing down a little

Heather: 2:06

You are one of my dearest, closest bosom friends of all time. And you mine. And I've been trying to think how long we've been friends. And I would say 12 years, really, because um my mother died 12 years ago in February, and she gave me a lot of gifts. And I feel like a lot of things in my life I owe to my But one of the greatest gifts I feel like she gave me was And you first had a dear friendship with my mother. Yes, Ruth. Um and yeah, my yeah, my middle name is the same name as my Ruth. Do you want to talk a little bit about my mom and your and how we how you went from Ruth to Heather Ruth?

Diana: 2:54

We uh I met Heather's mom, Ruth, in Farmington, New We both moved there at the same time. And some of Ruth's youngest children were the same age oldest children and became friends. And we eventually moved into the same ward, or by boundaries moved. Ward boundaries moved, and we ended up in the same ward. And Ruth was such a compassionate person, always sending notes in the mail if you gave a talk in church, or just a great cheerleader, wanted you to succeed. Uh, she was just such a lovely person. And I remember her talking about her daughter Heather, never met Heather. I Heather had already married, moved out of the house. I only knew the younger children. And then in 2013, we moved to Utah, and I enrolled at BYU complete a degree that I had always wanted, and uh just had the chance. And so one of my first classes, it was the very second that I was at BYU and enrolled in an MCOM class. And uh it didn't connect. Heather Pack didn't connect the last name, because you were a Buchanan, your mom's Ruth Buchanan.

Heather: 4:24

And I remember she called me in December. And so this was just a couple months before she died, and said, Heather, I think my friend is in your class. Do you have a Diana Lacey in your class? So I pulled up my roster, and sure enough, there was a Diana and she goes, I think that's my friend. And so she wanted me to look out for you and take care of But And you did. Well, the opposite kind of ended up happening because um the my mom died, I got in a car and drove up to Salt Lake and went to class and taught just hours after my mom had died. And my goal was to just not have anyone know. I didn't want anyone to feel sorry for me, or you know, I wanted it to feel as normal as possible. And you walked in to class with a bouquet of daisies, my favorite flower. And it was like my mom was walking in and just saying goodbye to me. Yeah. And I feel like that was the moment she transferred her to from her to me. And as close as you and my mom had been, that's as instant as you and I became close. I feel like Absolutely.

Diana: 5:40

It was it was instant. And you're so much so much like your mom, it wasn't hard.

Heather: 5:45

Everybody tells me that. Oh my gosh, you're the spitting image of Ruth.

Diana: 5:49

Not just that, but your heart, your soul, your compassion, of that was so I was so grateful to have you um to take the place of your mom for time being until we're all together someday.

Heather: 6:05

In some ways, I feel like I've learned more about my mom you because I get to see what my mom was like as a friend, I saw her as a mom and Sarah as a grandma, and saw her a bit as a daughter. I didn't see her interact with her mom too much, but I saw her in those roles. But you have introduced my mother to me as to what she was like as a friend. And that has just increased my love for my mom and has made me want to be more like the kind of friend my mom was to others. To, you know, I want to be that kind of friend too. So thankfully, you thankfully you are in my life, so I my mother. Today's episode will be a conversation about the midwives who most likely helped deliver Jesus. Luke's account of the Christmas story is briefer than we He simply says Mary laid the baby in a manger because there no room in the guest quarters. He doesn't mention a stable or an innkeeper. They were most likely in a relative's crowded home, and the would have been kept on the lower level. In that culture, the women in the household would help a woman giving birth. She wouldn't have done it alone. Well, okay, so one thing that's um probably not too uncommon two LDS people get together is you you see how many children had between them, and we had 11. So I had five and you had six, and together we were looking at 11 different birth stories. Yep. 11 different times that we've given birth to um a child, and gonna be talking about midwives today and and the midwives Mary most likely would have experienced. So um, do any of the stories of you giving birth to any children kind of jump out at you as maybe unique or different than the rest of them?

Diana: 7:59

Yes, and each one is unique, you know. Yeah, we tell our stories this, this, this, and we learn so much. But uh, and I never had a midwife. I had doctors, nurses, and all of that. But um one that was very special and and stands out is my child. Uh, when when I was five days from his due date, I had no that I was going to have this baby anytime soon. Most of mine had been born a teeny bit early, one on our date, but uh none of the normal feelings had come that I was going to be delivering soon. And so my husband had to go to Albuquerque. We were in New Mexico, and he had to go to Albuquerque for meeting three hours away, and he was worried, you know, should I go? Should I um stay? And I said, I am fine. Like, you're only three hours away. If you have to come back, it was an overnight, a dinner, an overnight, a meeting. I said, or you're only three hours away, we'll be fine. And even halfway there, he stopped in Cuba. There's a town called Cuba halfway between, called and on me, and I said, No, I'm fine. All the next door neighbor kids are over, we're You know, it's Friday night. Um, I'm just relaxing, watching Secret Garden. I even remember the movie. My sister, and here's the interesting part. My sister lived 20 minutes away, and she called me and worried and she didn't want me to be alone. And I said, Well, I'm not alone. There's 10 kids over here. And she said, Well, yeah, you shouldn't be doing that. You should be resting. And said, We're just having pizza. So she said, I'm coming. Like, I don't want you to be alone. And so she came to the house, and um, good thing, because again, just watching the movie. My husband got the soon as he got to Albuquerque three hours away, I had a really hard pain, really hard, sudden. And I was like, wow, that was not like feeling like a pain. So I called him and I said, I think you better come home I I really think you ought to come home now. And he did. He got in the car. And so I'm just gonna wait for him to come home because not gonna have the baby before he gets home, right? Yeah, of course. And I'm not clueing in for some reason. And suddenly my sister looks at me and I'm kind of shaking little. She and she said, Diana, you're going in a transition. You're about to have this baby. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you're right. Like, I wasn't someone outside of watching me was the one had to tell me this. And my husband, maybe halfway home, still an hour and a out, and we quickly sent the kids back home to the neighbors. A neighbor came to watch my kids. I think my oldest was 12, you know, the four kids, um, 12 down to four. And we immediately got in the car. I got to the hospital and got out of the car, and I could not take another step. And she came around, she's holding me. She's like, What are we gonna do? I said, I don't know, what are we gonna do? And a man had walked by and he came back and said, Do you help? And she said, Yes, bring a wheelchair. Went in, went straight up, and the nurse came in and she's You're having the baby.

Heather: 11:48

Oh my god.

Diana: 11:49

She said, I don't want to deliver a baby. I don't want to deliver a baby. And my sister kind of had to coach me for a little bit. And the doctor came in two minutes later, three, and the baby just in time. So had my sister not intuitively uh recognized the signs, responded, believed that I knew, I would have probably had baby at home with ten little kids in the house. It would have been horrific. Oh, and um unprepared and and it was a sister, you know, it was so special. And I still think of her every birthday of that fifth child because she oh, and my husband did get there, you know, half hour after the baby was born.

Heather: 12:39

Oh, she just missed it.

Diana: 12:41

Yeah. He walked in, saw the baby in the incubator, you know, all and he looked at me, are you mad? I was like, no, I'm, you know, we made it. My sister was here. It was beautiful. She did a good job. She reckoned. I don't know if my husband had been home and I would like, I'm fine. You know. And we had a I I don't know, but it was really great she there.

Heather: 13:03

Really, do you think there was a part of you that kind of seeing the signs of transition because you didn't want be the signs of transition?

Diana: 13:12

Yeah. So I was just relaxed. I was kind of in a recliner and trying to just ignore didn't really come faster, but they were hard when they So I was just kind of, you know, doing some Lamaze, just keeping, but they didn't they didn't start coming fast. They were just Yeah. And so I didn't recognize the transition at all till she kind of in a panicky voice said, We're going now.

Heather: 13:48

Well, and and I think too, I I know I've this has happened to me. Sometimes you process information through a lens of how it to be true. Like, I want my labor to be going slowly because Mike's on his way back. We're gonna go to the hospital together, we're gonna have baby. And and so you process, you process what data exactly. And so you process the data through this kind of this lens of this is how it's going to go. So this is what this data means. Right.

Diana: 14:23

So baby will know not to come till daddy's here.

Heather: 14:29

Um, so let's talk about a little bit about Mary's birth story. Um, so I had you read the chapter or the introduction chapter on midwives. Did anything jump out at you as you looked it over or about the story?

Diana: 14:41

It was such a great story. So Heather has a fictional story about um midwives have come certainly, because historically the women knew signs of birth, they knew what to do, and there were Jewish rituals and a performance that needed to happen, and they have certainly been there. And it's not a story most people tell or think about. We just kind of see the movie, Joseph is there, she's in a there's hay everywhere. He he delivers. And it just it really stood out to me that you would bring that these women who would have been near or in the um would not have left her alone. They would have known what to do. Just like my sister knew what to do and when to do it when I was clueless. Shouldn't have been, again, my fifth baby, Mary this child, maybe would not and would need extra guidance and on delivering. So I loved that you brought up that there certainly been midwives.

Heather: 15:56

How beautiful to think about the women who could be those of the birth and saw his eyes open, just like Mary did. And um, and you know, one thing I've said often about Mary is she saw Jesus open his eyes for the first time and close them for the last time as a mortal on earth, you know, and she a witness of his life from beginning to end. Um, and in and we even know she was still a disciple at the So even after his resurrection and ascension into continued to, you know, so I always think of her as the longest witness, the one that was there from the beginning to the very end. Yeah. Um and I yeah, I imagine, I mean, the other thing, and I don't know, like, there's a lot of details that we don't get in the birth story of Jesus, but I can't imagine Mary was thinking how ideal these circumstances were. They're out of town, they're visiting family, they're in house, there's a census going on, there's a lots of people She probably wasn't like, oh, this is how I've always dreamed of having a baby. And, you know, having to move down into that lower room where the animals are stored at night. Um I think that's where this idea of a barn comes from, wasn't something the Jews did. They didn't have barns. In the scriptures, it says a lower room, but they could have you know, a cave or something else. But basically a place where the animals came at night to get from the predators. And and I I just have a hard time believing the animals were Seems like they would have shooed the animals out. I don't know. I I guess I'm thinking more as a woman giving birth than I am of a scriptorian at this point. But I would like to think Mary had had it as comfortable as with the circumstances she was given. And because of the women, the women were doing what they could to make it um as easy on Mary, who tradition tells us she have been so young. Just a teenager, little 12, 13-year-old, 14-year-old. Um, and how scary that would have been for her. But yet, here were women who had been there who know what like, comforting and saying, It's okay. We we've done this many times, we've seen this many times, here for you.

Diana: 18:26

And didn't you in your story and your research, you talked how they would have rubbed him with salt as a thing and and then wrapped him in the um cloth of their family, and and doing it a certain way that was ritualistic for a birth.

Heather: 18:45

Ritualistic. And I don't know if I talk about it in this book, but I know done it in other writings where the way Jesus was born is very similar to the way Jesus died, in that he was laid on stone, he was wrapped in cloths, um, the women went to put oils on body um as part of the burial ceremony. And so there's a lot of symbolism, I think, between how came into the world versus how in comparison to how he laughed too. So I kind of want to just transition a little bit about actual physical birth and delivering the way these women help Jesus to delivering other things in our lives. And we deliver babies, but um some of us do and some of us but that doesn't change whether we can be a midwife or not it comes to delivering news and gospel and the teachings of and truth. And um so I wanted to ask you have there been times when experienced something and it wasn't necessarily a birth, but someone showed up for you like your sister did when you were, you know, about to give birth to your fifth child, but have been other times in your life when um someone else showed up you when maybe you weren't even recognizing the pain that you were in?

Diana: 20:05

Oh, certainly. I mean, there are so many incredibly important people who have shown up, um, friends, neighbors, family. Um I guess a very important time for me. And again, I I grew up in the church, I've been a member my whole life. I've had beautiful experiences, most everywhere I have and grown and loved. And my husband and I have served in many many leadership uh capacities in all the organizations. Um and there was a time I went through a really difficult uh experience when I was a woman leader. I didn't recognize the situation I was in because it wasn't what I expected. I had always had really beautiful experiences and so I was conflicted. And by the time I finished serving in that capacity, I and didn't realize it. I was um I felt worthless. I didn't think I mattered to God, and I couldn't put words to it, actually, and didn't even know it could be a thing, you know. But there were multiple friends that I believed God placed my life, you being one, and I remember two good friends took me to lunch and said, so You don't seem as like happy, maybe, as you usually are, and like your countenance has kind of Is everything okay? And there were many people who had started asking me I felt like I couldn't talk about it. Like I felt like I just had to keep that pain and that it right for me to say anything about what I was suffering. But some women wouldn't let that stay and help me to be able to talk about it. And and one woman actually, when and she was fairly I met her when we were on a vacation, and she kind of things and talked to me. And and she said, Oh, yeah, you you know you've been right? And and that word was so, uh, no. Like, nobody hit me, nobody physically, you know. And she goes, Yeah, but you you've been really abused, and you you really need some help and therapy. This will bleed into your life if you don't find someone. And she started talking me through and telling me what, and it, and it finally opened up my soul that um I still kind of couldn't call it abuse because I didn't understand the term spiritual abuse or unrighteous dominion, we call it. I didn't understand when someone uses their priesthood power or authority to undermine, marginalize, or I didn't know it had a term. And I didn't know it could be so physically painful, it a lot of physical pain. Um, I couldn't eat, sleep, a lot of a lot of physical were happening, and I didn't know those signs, but other did. And because of them and you and others who were able to compassionately and had maybe had some experiences, I could find my path to healing and um heal my relationship with which never really was broken. I felt like somehow I did something to break that. And being able to go through months and months of finally with a really good professional therapist helped me see that's not how God saw me, was a real breakthrough that I especially women, so badly.

Heather: 24:56

Well, and let me share just really quick my side of it and what I was thinking when you were going through this, because I I you were in pain. You were giving me just updates almost to the hour sometimes what you were experiencing. And I knew it was awful, I knew it was unfair, but I don't I had the words for what you were experiencing either. I just I was hurting for you. You would say things like, well, this is God chastising me. No, I don't think God's chastising you, but I wasn't in your I wasn't in those rooms.

Diana: 25:33

It's more catastrophic than we think. I mean, we think of physical and sexual abuse, and it is but emotional abuse and then add uh religious authority that kind of feels like God somehow. To me, I felt like that's what God thought, what they said to me or said about me was what God thought, because we're priesthood leaders speak and act for God. Well, I believe that wholeheartedly, and I was raised and so I couldn't separate that, that sometimes that's And so being able to reconnect with the God I always um, which includes Heavenly Mother, Heavenly Parents me, Jesus Christ, it was stopping me from my eternal And I hear that term from women who go through this. It's like, it's like I was completely stopped from my progression. And so the more I studied that, when when someone uses dominion, trying to be in the place of God, it ruptures and can cause all kinds of damage, both in your soul and with connection with God and others.

Heather: 26:52

It's very, very interesting. I think about Elizabeth and Mary's interaction and and how it must have been for Elizabeth to immediately go, I I believe you. I believe that you are the handmaiden of the Lord.

Diana: 27:07

Yeah, here Mary has this wonderful news. Yeah. And and people don't believe her. Joseph, you know, had to have an angel come to say, Yes, speaking truth. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's it's very hard when you um believe you're you're delivering some news that's going to um help the help people, and but because it involves maybe the actions of someone that's highly regarded, um no one wants to hear that news. And and it's really painful when you're speaking truth not believed. Betrayal trauma, not not being believed, or someone who you thought would absolutely know you're an eyewitness you saw, and just being chastised for for, you know, he's a good guy. He would never do that. You, you know, what are you thinking? And you must not have seen what you thought you saw. Those kind of things are painful when you think you're gonna help um someone who's been victim of it. Yeah. And you're gonna help the perpetrator start his repentance and be able to be on the road to healing himself. And then the victims are gonna be able to heal, and then it is shut down and stopped. It's super painful. And I'm sure Mary experienced that. Like, here I have this good news. It's gonna help people.

Heather: 28:49

I just feel like there's so many stories not recorded, you know, about the nine months of being um with child with Jesus and every single month was like, we don't know. And what was it like for her to show up at our at Joseph's home in in another town? And did everyone know the story? Did everyone believe the story? Did they do the math and go, wait, we know how long you've married, we know how far along she is? Like you just can't help but wonder, you know, what Mary that isn't recorded. Yeah, yeah. And or at least the victim of gossip. Yeah. And on and when how was Joseph perceived?

Diana: 29:40

And not just then, but throughout Jesus' life. The Pharisees didn't want to have this good news.

Heather: 29:52

Yeah.

Diana: 29:53

And many people didn't want to have the news that Jesus is Christ, He's the Savior. And what greater news had you been watching for for thousands and thousands of years? And some believed and some did not.

Heather: 30:11

Well, and I think it kind of goes back to when you were Mike saying, hurry home, it's coming. And oh, your baby is coming. Yeah, and your sister's like, you're you're okay. And I and I think it kind of goes back to when there's times Jesus delivered news that was not easy to hear or just didn't fit what you thought was true, or the narrative, you know, I think you were like, I'm gonna wait for Mike to get home, gonna go to the hospital together, this is how it's gonna go. And and here's someone like Jesus coming in, like your sister, going, that's not how things are gonna go. Yep. It's gonna be different this time. And I think when we are in the yeah, and when we're in the of your sister or of a midwife of Jesus who can see things others can't see it, it can make delivering that news very to even want to deliver it. Right. And I think especially when we see other people, I call them tellers. I see you and me as truth tellers. We have a very difficult time staying quiet when we know what the truth is. We see it, it's it's like we say it.

Diana: 31:27

Well, I remember at one point, um, and this is an entirely story, but um, and I I don't really want to get into it, my husband and I this time witnessing something, and we there, we saw it, we were delivering some bad news. And it it again didn't go well. And we knew, because of my previous experience, I knew it wouldn't go well. Reporting on someone that people think is a good guy. And but even though I knew this might not go well, I keep that on my shoulders. Like I couldn't hide the truth.

Heather: 32:16

Yeah.

Diana: 32:16

Even though this was gonna be really hard to go through. And it was, it was pretty catastrophic until and and none none of the higher-up leaders wanted to hear us. It was not received well, and there were some who later some general authorities called and thanked us. Um but that was months and months down the road while we we had to stand for and witness what we witnessed, even at cost, even knowing what it would cost us, because it would others. It would protect and help and bless uh, especially younger

Heather: 33:05

And and I think the hard reality that we face as people who to be truth tellers is sometimes that vindication comes Sometimes we're proven right and the evidence flows in, and are like, oh my gosh, you were right all along. And sometimes it doesn't happen. You know, sometimes that validation doesn't definitely not away, and it might not happen for years to come or if ever. And and so I my question for you is what keeps you motivated continue to be a truth teller even if it's not received the validation doesn't show up, what keeps you going to keep it?

Diana: 33:51

Um you know, thankfully, thankfully, my first experience gave me such a connection with God, Jesus Christ. Um, the validation that came from the suffering I had to go into made me so much stronger that I could go through the time when I knew it had to be validated. And I believe, like, I don't know, I I think a lot of the of the women at the tomb, and you know, they were the first to witness uh Christ's resurrection and they go running and they tell the apostles and they're not believed. Idle tales, you know, lock the door. Yeah, it it's and I just know that well, they knew it didn't matter how it was received. They went on gloriously knowing that the truth they told, witnessed. And so um, I mean, it's great to tell good news as well. Um and not I I I believe all truth is important, the good and the bad. Like if our church is true, which I believe uh the gospel true, I believe it can withstand all truth. And that the supposedly bad truth is the only way when we about it, it can weed out, you know, some of the situations. It helps us see if we can't shine light on a problem by that truth, if we can't shed light on it, how are we ever to improve and grow and be a better church? And um and I I know, I know, uh there are difficulties in organization, any religion, any organization, and the to call out um problems challenge us to rise up above as men and women, rise up above these problems, study them, which is what I did for a couple of years, studying dominion, spiritual abuse, so that we can help people compassionately heal and find their faith, find God again, wherever that is, uh reconnect. And having the ability to uh speak about that is super in any organization. Organizations get better when people are allowed to challenge problems at any level.

Heather: 36:54

Yeah. And yeah, I I got my master's in public administration, so a lot of instead of business organizations, we looked at and governmental organizations and how they work. And one of the big differences between getting an MBA is you don't work with customers or clients. You know, it's not a financial transaction to live in a You're not a customer of the mayor. He's your he's your public servant. He's there to help you. We have lengthy discussions about what we called citizen and what transparency looks like in an organization. And we learned a lot about how to communicate the truth, what's really going on to the citizens, because if they're in a to help make change, bring them in, let them know. And and don't be so scared to say, oh, well, they're not a servant or they're not in administration, they don't, they get it. They don't get it. I mean, that was something we saw a lot in local government, attitude. And what we were learning was, no, when you let the citizens you can come up with a better answer. And and I think for, you know, you're talking about truth. And to me, it's like truth will always survive the light. Yes, when you when you shine a light on it, it will And and how ugly or embarrassing that truth may be, it when you put a light on it, things can only get better, in my opinion. I mean, that's my Pollyanna way of looking at it.

Diana: 38:35

The darkness dissipates.

Heather: 38:37

Yeah. And I I I you had six kids. I had five kids. I'm sure you have lots of teenage stories as I do. But one of the things I used to tell my teenagers all the is I don't care what the truth is, but don't lie to me or I can't help you. Oh. Whatever your story is, whatever problem you're in, it's I just need the truth or else I can't be in a position to And it's when they would hide and lie things from me that I, hands were tied and I wasn't working with correct

Diana: 39:11

Right. Information, good information needs good inspiration. We hear that. And yeah, if we're denied the opportunity to share information of what we've experienced, what we've witnessed, nothing's going to improve, get better, might get worse because we're just surface, we're just living on and everything that's happening underneath the currents are flowing and the, you know, just continue to build and and and um so yeah, that's why this study that helped me helped others is when you can have the education or the a change of perspective, a change in what you're seeing, you can when you recognize the signs, the signs of birth, the of abuse, you know, those kind of things, you can respond to that. The the next step is responding. You can respond inappropriately or appropriately. My sister saw the signs of transition, she acted, she took to the doctor. Yeah. You know, when I had friends recognize the signs of know, acted, helped me to get to someone that could help me heal. Um, and and without that um really great professional I really don't know, you know, would I have I been able to in the church? Would I have been able to continue relationships? I was so um, so I had from that experience, I had PTSD And I I did not know that it your brain reacts the same to abuse as it does to emotional. I couldn't be present long enough to read more than a over and over. You know, there were a lot of signs that had I known in or for future now, when I recognize it as someone else, uh we can then recognize, we know how to respond, and then we can recover.

Heather: 41:34

Say that again. So recognize so there's three Rs. Oh yeah.

Diana: 41:41

You know, make a patterns. Right. Recognize, respond, and recover. I love that. Yeah, yeah. I like the three R's too. It helps us to see, because we're not just if all you do recognize it and you don't do anything, you know, gonna do it. If you correctly respond to it, like someone comes to you bad news, BB, um, and you respond incorrectly and hurt them further, you know, your questions, your your chastising them for whatever, you you you probably won't ever get the full It just stops it. Yeah. If you respond appropriately and ask compassionate you're gonna, you're going to be able to draw out more and help them. And then the recovery, part of the recovery for me was knowing other women who had been involved, you know, had had similar experiences. So, like, the more you I just thought I was the only person that ever experienced this on the face of the earth. I didn't know about it. And and the more people came to me and came to me and came me, I was like, oh, so we can help one another. And and and that's part of recovery and understanding being able to put words to what you experience is super healing. Oh, it's named something. Like maybe you go to the doctor and something's wrong, but can't find out what what it is. There's no and you keep going and going and going, and they find what is causing this. And you when you finally have a diagnosis, then you start the healing process. You can't heal something that you don't know what it is.

Heather: 43:31

Yeah.

Diana: 43:31

You know what I mean? Like you're sick and you don't know what it is. Well, how do you heal that? I don't know, you're sick. Yeah. In the doctor's handy went, I don't know, you're just That's not helpful.

Heather: 43:43

Let's let's take both of your stories of you being in labor the one where you were very upset and your friends were like, um, you need therapy. You're you're just imagine I'm fine. I'm I'm I'll get over. Imagine if you'd blown them off or said, you don't know. I my story's different. In yours, you don't understand. Just think one, you would have given birth at home with 10 running around. But and that would have probably made the news and been a story, you know. I but who knows? Who knows what would have happened. Wouldn't have been ideal.

Diana: 44:16

It would have been traumatizing for life for my kids neighbor kids.

Heather: 44:21

If if in your second story you had ignored and hadn't responded and had just said, No, I'm fine. I just if I just pray and read my scriptures, I'll suck it up, buttercup. I can do this. That's what I thought. It would have been devastating.

Diana: 44:37

It just uh yeah. And it if it would have gone on, I mean, within within a of months, people came, you know, came and helped me. And within a couple of months I got to professional help um it it took a l quite a while, but within about eight months I felt like I was human again. I I wasn't just in this thought, I don't matter to any, you know, and not mattering to God is is just super painful. I when you've had this great feelings of trust and uh and was broken not by God, yeah, but by you know other people you trusted and believed.

Heather: 45:31

Well, that's the difficulty by someone who either you believed or they proclaimed were speaking for God, you know, and I'm a mouthpiece of the Lord or I'm his representative, and how God feels about you. That's hard to unpack when in your heart you're like, that sound like the God I know.

Diana: 45:53

Yeah, you're your mind, your heart kind of knows, but your is telling you all these other things because it's been all damaged, really. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Heather: 46:04

So um I as we wrap up, I'd love to just ask you um if if someone listening who is maybe holding on to a truth right that they know they really should, they're probably being right now, thinking I should be speaking up. There's something I know that's true, and I'm a little to tell people because I don't know how it's gonna get I don't know how people are gonna respond. And I might have some negative consequences if I tell this What advice would you give to that person as to what they do about delivering that truth?

Diana: 46:45

Well, first of all, probably prepare that you might not It could go badly. But I think it's worse on yourself and you don't help someone else uh by holding in a truth. And as you share a truth, like maybe you raise your hand in Sunday School, and maybe you have a little bit different your experiences, you have a different perspective, and you don't want to say it because maybe, you know, I I don't know, people are gonna judge you. And then it's so great when you say it, and then afterwards someone said, I I had that same feeling, I had that same And this, you know, you've done that, Heather, you've where people who maybe aren't brave enough, and it takes to kind of speak up in an environment where we just are to keep quiet, maybe, and to bring up some things that when you speak them, they it's so great when someone comes and You helped me through that. I was on the very edge and I I of their own whatever's on. And it's so wonderful when you've helped another fellow family member have when you can share that compassion or sorrow together and and create understanding and move and you help them move forward in their life. Um yeah, I've I've been grateful for those in a room who spoken up when something might have caused me a lot of pain hearing it, and have come by afterwards and even said, that might have been painful for you to hear. And and I can say yes, and I'm I'm glad you I'm glad you that.

Heather: 48:47

I I think I've told you this story before. You were kind of my inspiration as to why I even did one Sunday in Sunday school, because you I know you've several stories of you are one of those brave people that will raise your hand and say something different than what the talking about. And you'll say, Well, here's my experience, or here's what observed. And you're basically saying almost the opposite of what's being said in the room. And that's always impressed me. I've always been very inspired by that. And so I don't do it as often as you do. I think I'm a little more shy that way, but I do remember one time in Sunday School, I just was getting frustrated that wasn't being talked about. And I'm like, we're getting into all these weeds about all this stuff when really the point is this is pointing to Christ and we're not acknowledging that. Anyway, I can't remember what the lesson was or the instance but I raised my hand probably about five minutes before ended and just shared finally what was on my mind and on I didn't really get that, oh, thank you. You know, it was just kind of like the teacher afterwards I wanted to look at something he had on the table. And he came up to me and he goes, Don't you ever do that again. Oh. And I was devastated. Yeah. I was mortified. And I felt like just crawling into a hole. And then he said, When you have a comment that is that to say, don't wait till the end of class to say it. It was a total twist. You know, it was a total record screen. Yeah. And because I was ready to just get yelled at and, you know, said, hey, don't mess up my class like that. Don't, don't undermine my point. You know, I felt like I was about to get one of those lectures. And it was the opposite. He was like, you changed the whole tone of the class. And then the class ended. We needed your comment way before then. He says, Don't sit on a comment like that ever again. And that was a real powerful lesson for me. That I think there's times where we are moved or inspired or and we're like, I should say something. And then we just talk ourselves out of it. And and you're you're a great inspiration as someone who do that.

Diana: 51:16

No, I well, it kind of I I I usually wait a bit and see if it really do. I really need to say this. And I'm not afraid to if I feel like it's really must be that needs to that I wouldn't feel good at going home and not said. There's times too that I just say, mm, is it worth it or not today?

Heather: 51:38

Yeah.

Diana: 51:39

You cost benefit analysis. Yeah. But I uh you brought up a memory of mine where someone uh told me something that happened to them. And I said, Well, you you that's you really need to report And because of the person, the perpetrator, you know, of his standing and who he who he was, um the position he serving in, he could hurt others. And so she she went forward with that, she told her and he kind of said, Well, I don't know what to do about And this the person, the uh the perpetrator was in a stake, even. And so I just said, Well, this is where his calling is, these are the people he can hurt. Um I can't report what happened to you because you're an woman, I could you could decide that you change your mind and I you know it caused a problem for you. But I would highly, highly hope that you would report And she was brave enough too. She goes, Oh, I don't I don't want anyone else for this to too. And it it actually went so well that the priesthood leader, the stake president she reported to, he said it was hard to hard to believe, but he was going to believe her and take And he called in this man and had a discussion, and the man actually admitted and reported and was removed from a Marie's with some youth, young adults actually. And she she saved some catastrophic things that could have because she was willing, but she knew ahead of time that you know, I said, this could go badly. And she's like, I don't care. It's too much for me to hold in. And I said, I agree. And so when you get to that point, which was where I was several times, when you firmly believe that it's so to be told, this news has to be told. And you know you might have to withstand a lot of pushback, like Mary did. Like many who knew Christ, you know, had to really him and had social consequences kicked out of the or there's so many stories. And but they believed and knew what Jesus Christ was teaching and that this would move things forward and they wanted to be on his side. And so, yeah, in closing, I just you know, if we can see who Jesus really was, he lifted up the women in every aspect they were their societal status was below the slaves, and yet he his first miracle was for a woman. The first person he told publicly he was the Christ was a He was trying to show that um women are just as important needed. A woman anointed him before his burial. Women were the first apostles to the apostles, you know, he valued women's opinions and women's ability to see act and to do work in his name. So uh I always try to go there when I'm going to maybe say that might be uh uncomfortable, but I think what stood up for the victims? You know, would he have been a would he speak for them?

Heather: 55:51

Yeah.

Diana: 55:52

And when I want to say something, I want to say it in a way that would I I would speak for the the marginalized or

Heather: 56:03

And Jesus trusted these women to deliver these messages to Yes. And and the reality is he trusts us too. Good point. We're just as trusted. And and you are a walking example of that. So you're too kind.

Diana: 56:24

I tr I try to be like your mom and you. And my mom. My mom was one of those. You know, we had good mothers.

Heather: 56:33

Well, and isn't that kind of what midwives are? They pass down the information from mother to daughter, we're we are living examples of our mothers passing down you know, how to do things and how to how what we should be And we do that with our daughters, and so it goes.

Diana: 56:53

My great-great grandma was a pioneer midwife. She delivered 500 babies. What? Yeah. She delivered and she was blessed that um yeah, that she had a gift and that she would never lose a mother. And she delivered 500 babies and never lost a mother. That's amazing. And that's huge in the 1800s.

Heather: 57:25

That's even amazing. I don't know what the you know the mortality rate is now. There's more people dying than needs to be giving birth even today's age. But back then, oh my goodness. That's incredible. So you you literally come from midwives. I was really connected that I was like, hey, wait a minute.

Diana: 57:45

I have this great-great-grandma. So it's in my DNA.

Heather: 57:49

Yeah. What was your great-great-grandmother's name? Do you remember? Or you know? Yeah.

Diana: 57:53

Sarah Thompson Phelps.

Heather: 57:56

Well, thank you so much, Diana, for taking the time um to and taking time out of the way. We always have good days together. I know. It's just this is this is one of those times where the actually recording. But I know.

Diana: 58:09

How many times have we said we should record this?

Heather: 58:11

I know. We're like after we're done with an hour too. I know, right? We're like, wait, that was we just did a podcast and we didn't even know it. But but now we're literally doing it. So thank you so much for joining me. But thank you for being a midwife and being such a great to me and to everyone around. Thank you, Heather.

Diana: 58:30

And thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and all that you're teaching. Thanks. And if anybody doesn't know, Heather is a fantastic teacher and she's a theologian and she studies and brings out so important things, especially for women.

Heather: 58:48

So I I never thought my molecular biology background would be used, but I realized I studied the scriptures kind of like a cell under the microscope. So yeah, yeah.

Diana: 58:59

You too. I take I take kind of a scientific analytical approach. You are amazing. So thanks, Heather.

Heather: 59:07

Thank you, Diana. I love you. Love you too. Thanks for joining me at The Approachable Jesus. Please share this episode with a friend. That's how these conversations find the people who My newsletter, current course offerings, and all my latest are at timesoffaith.com. Remember, Jesus is closer and more approachable than you