McArthur: 0:00

There's some guy back in the corner buying a gun, and some having a meltdown on aisle 287, and some woman buying her and there's just hundreds of people in this Walmart. And then a voice came to her and said, Now you know a very portion of the love I have for these my children as their

Heather: 0:22

I'm Heather Ruth Pack, and this is The Approachable Jesus, a of Faith production. Jesus can feel distant. The people of the Bible lived in a different world, a time, but their times of faith weren't all that different ours. And that's what we're going to talk about. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to The Approachable Jesus. I'm Heather Ruth Pack, and today we are talking about how we the power to shape the world. And my guest is McArthur Krishna. Thank you for joining me, McArthur.

McArthur: 0:53

Hi, hi. Pleasure to be with you. I always love our chats.

Heather: 0:56

Oh, it's it's always it's just manna to from heaven when I get to talk to you. Um so let me tell everyone a little bit about McArthur. She was um when she was in college, her horoscope told her that she would be a ballerina, bulldoze driver, and a trapeze So she was a little bummed because she was hoping to be a princess turned bandit in boots with a cape.

McArthur: 1:22

I mean, I had my life plan worked out, right?

Heather: 1:25

As someone who grew up in New Mexico, I love the idea of being a desert princess. That sounds amazing. Right. But the truth is, McArthur has always been a shapeshifter, a businesswoman, river guide, window washer, waitress, forest archaeologist, technician assistant, graduate student, daughter, sister, vixen, nice Mormon girl, and traveler. And they all got good stories. I imagine I could listen to those stories for hours.

McArthur: 1:54

Of all the I always told myself that I refuse to be bored in own life, and 100% I can say I've lived up to them.

Heather: 2:01

Yeah, that's amazing. Um, and so you now um are a shapeshifter who shapes the world. Uh McArthur is an author, speaker, and artist. She has published 17 books, six with Deseret Book. She's a popular presenter at the Restore Conference and is for her firesides um about Heavenly Mother. And her artwork has been seen in art galleries, including the Compass Gallery, Written Vision Gallery, and the Bountiful Davis Art Center. And she curated and participated in the first art show LDS world to showcase its theology of a female supreme being.

McArthur: 2:41

And my art was actually at Temple Square at the Church History Museum. So that's incredible.

Heather: 2:48

I can I'm confident in saying that our world is definitely because you, McArthur, are in our world. So you have shaped our world and we are all beneficiaries So thank you for the work that you do and for all that you do to inspire all of us to seek and be like our heavenly

McArthur: 3:13

Thank you.

Heather: 3:14

Yeah. So today's episode is connected to the anointing of Jesus who are also shapeshifters. In the Gospels, we read of women washing and anointing Jesus separate times. In Luke 7, a sinful woman weeps at Jesus' feet, washes them her tears, and dries them with her hair. Later, in Mark and Matthew, an unnamed woman pours expensive on Jesus' head and Bethany just days before his crucifixion. And in John, Mary of Bethany anoints his feet with costly And Jesus tells everyone she's preparing him for burial. So, McArthur, as you think about these stories of women um Jesus, what what's your reaction? What are some thoughts that come to your mind?

McArthur: 4:04

I had so many thoughts, and some of them are even contradictory. So welcome to the inside of my brain. But um part of my reaction was like The Apostles, where they this could have been sold and given to the poor. Where I think, why are we building expensive buildings when there are hungry people? Right. So I've I've been guilty of that same kind of reaction, right? Of how do we use resources? Um, I also think it was interesting that the material itself one woman is bathing with tears and other you're using costly oil, and both are considered acceptable, acceptable And so I love that. Like whatever we bring to Jesus is considered an acceptable whether or not it's this rich, expensive, abundant, and you make an analogy there, or if it's just literally something as authentic and heartfelt and um zero cost as someone's zero cost, as someone's tears, right? And I think that this idea that our offering before God is is such a beautiful idea. Like when you come with full heart, then your offering to is acceptable, whatever the material is, whatever it might look like. It may look very, very different from someone else's but it's it's welcomed. And I think that's actually one of the maybe the most important analogies of our session or of our world right now, is that our lives look really different from each other. Like if someone looked at my life, they may say, Oh, A B C. And some of those things may look like offerings to the like books or art shows or something. But someone may say, Oh, she only gave birth to one child. So I have three daughters, but only one of them I gave birth And is that an acceptable offering? Right. And I have worked in the home and outside of the home. I have, I have traveled the world and lived in America. Like there's so many ways that my life maybe looks similar or different than another woman's, and understanding that the of our lives to Jesus and our heavenly parents is acceptable, even if it's different from another woman's. And I think to me, that was one of the most important take-homes of comparing these sections, right? Is that it's the fullheartedness that matters more offering material actually is. Um, and I think the the lack of comparison, right? That our lives are different. And so I am 52 years old and I'm about to start my second degree. And that looks different than most of my friends. But I mean, I I they think I'm crazy, I think I'm crazy, right? And so that's okay, right? This is the path that I clearly have been led to and um kind of hand delivered to me. And so part of the abundance of having different also the imperative to not compare someone else's offering, you know, that we live this life in different ways and that different ways are all of God, right? Simply because my life is different than someone else's. I got married at 37, one of my dear friends got married at 21, right? Those are not insufficient offerings, even though they're Mine or hers are not better or worse before God because they're different. We are all heading the same direction back to our heavenly We're not on the same detailed life paths, right? Those paths are gonna be different.

Heather: 7:34

Yeah. I I I love I love your insight because you're pointing out that for centuries I feel like was lost in that these stories have been combined traditionally into one event, one Um, it's partly why Mary Magdalene has had the reputation of a prostitute for so many centuries. And I love that I so whenever I talk about it or you this in class, I always treat them as three separate events I think there's something to glean in the differences like you have pointed out. And I love that you see that because it's the differences make each offering so special and unique.

McArthur: 8:22

Absolutely. And in making them different, it also is not the women were involved, right? Like every once in a while we like to point out there was one woman, there's one woman prophetess. Well, turns out in through the Old Testament, there's there's several women who are treated that way, who are given that And it's important as women that we don't just think being is one woman's opportunity, right? So the General Relief Society president gets to be gets to do her service. The rest of us are not, right? Like, and I think it's really important to hold up with myriad of women. It means there's myriad of ways and people who who show us a that the women have always been involved. A plethora of women have been involved. And I think that's even really important too.

Heather: 9:09

Well, and I I wanted to ask you uh also um your reaction to, you know, you talked about how you have done things differently other women have done things, and and um, and these women doing something different than what the men in the room were and they were criticized as a result. And um, and does that resonate with you at all? Have you experienced people on the outside going, well, wait a minute, why are you doing it this way?

McArthur: 9:38

I think that men and women offer something different, and why partnership is vital, and we need to be careful of falling into the danger of complementarianism. Like it is not okay to say that one gender is born to and one gender is not, right? That is that is that is simply because the men and the women these rooms are doing different jobs, does not mean that are necessarily gender-based. And so I want to be really, really clear about that. However, I do think that often, not always, but on a spectrum of abilities that men and women fall kind of into camps, I mean, and I do think it's a spectrum, it's not just a camp. But in those differences is where you have strength and power and completeness. And I think that yin and the yang is what actually makes for great decision making. And so when we see each other in the room working towards same goal, even if we're doing things differently, like women are anointing, men are sitting in the room. Like if we're doing things differently, if we can see each on the same team, working for the same goals, working to serve God, then there's no room for criticism. They didn't need to criticize the woman's offerings, And the women didn't need to be like, Well, why are you on your bum over in the corner? You're not doing anything.

Heather: 10:54

Absolutely. That wasn't something. I mean, I think you make a great point. Jesus didn't ever turn to the men and go, Well, how come not doing this?

McArthur: 11:03

Right, right. So we are doing different things, and that's okay. And we need to be really careful that we don't fall into the of different means complementarism, because that's I of God at all. Um so circling around kind of to the second part of your one of the things that's held me in really good stead is always gonna be people who see the world differently from each other. That's okay, right? Like we're gonna say differently. I think the problem becomes when we scorn someone else. When I scorn or have contempt for someone else, um, the refer to the four um four horsemen of the apocalypse. Like the end of your marriage comes when you feel scorn That's one of the horsemen. And I think that the while they're studying um relationships, marital relationships, it is also true for even just Zion. If we're feeling scorn for someone else's position or work or thoughts, or that they have to be like us, we are the only way to do things, then that's gonna be the end of Zion. That's gonna be the end of a chance of an intimate, loving that we're all trying to grow here. So I 100% are there people who felt differently about Heavenly Mother than I do. That's okay. Like, like there are people who feel differently about food than I do. That's okay, right? You love the scriptures and you are so knowledgeable about the scriptures. That's not what I have spent my time focusing and learning Great. You know, like your knowledge on this provides abundance life. And I honestly think that specifically on Heavenly Mother, I she's everyone's mother. I think there's value in everyone loving their mother and their mother. I mean, I think no one would ever say you don't need your mother. No one would ever say that. So I'm not sure why we would say we don't need our heavenly right? However, if someone is at a particular stage of life where they don't feel the need for their mother, that's okay. Like, I really believe that heavenly father and Jesus and Mother are on the same team. They're not jealous Greek gods fighting over who gets time and attention, right? And so if heavenly mother brings me closer to God and on the to my heavenly parents, so President Nelson said, Jesus Christ puts us on the covenant path back to our heavenly parents, Back to heavenly parents is the goal. And so if someone connects to their mother and that gets them back to heaven, why would anyone else mind that? Right. And if they do, that's okay. Because they're they're on the path via another route, and everyone gets to do it. And so I don't have um, I don't really mind when people feel than I do, quite honestly. Um, and when people criticize, um there's a thread that pointed out to me that my name was being used in vain. And I thought, honestly, that does more harm to them. Like feeling contempt does more damage to our own soul than the person aimed at. Because I have never written a book, given a fireside, an art show without 100% saying, Dear God, be with me and my path.

Heather: 14:17

Yeah.

McArthur: 14:17

Right. And so I really feel that being on the Lord's errand in some is like a force field. It just it just doesn't matter.

Heather: 14:28

Yeah, right. Yeah, I love that. So tell me a little bit about kind of your origin story. Did you always have this idea of heavenly mother in your even as a little child?

McArthur: 14:39

Has she always been a part of your so the first time I remember is um actually Carolyn Pearson's book, My Turn on Earth. And Carol Lynn Pearson just recently passed away. I'm actually going to her um memorial service on Saturday. So in just a couple of days, um, there's commemorating her and um I'm gonna go in person. It's also on Zoom. Um, but I think that that was the first time that at least I crossing paths with that idea. And it's the story of a little girl who is sent from the and queen on Earth Life to figure out hard things, and she and she falls and she gets grouchy and she experiences all of all of what we experience, right? And I remember reading that book, and I again I don't know how old I was. I remember at least by 12, because by 12 I was having about it. But sometime in my early years, my mom gave me that book, is such a beautiful thing. My mom was a uh student at BYU and she heard about Carolyn work and invited Carolyn Pearson to come to their dorm to to them. And she Carol Lynn Pearson came to this dorm, except the girl was in charge of the marketing forgot. So Carol Lynn Pearson shows up and nobody's there. And my mom is so embarrassed. And she runs around the dorm, heritage halls, every single she can snag and recruit for that moment. So she said, I want I got maybe three or four girls to come to listen to Carolyn. And she says, you know what? What I remember about that evening is not so much what she said and not the books that she talked about, but the love of which she greeted our mistake. She was gracious in the face of two young girls messing up. And so my mom is actually coming out to visit me tomorrow, and she and I are gonna go to this uh memorial service together. And I just think that um, while my mom was interested in Pearson, you know, from BYU days, and that's probably why she got the My Turnal North book, and that's probably why she it to me. I think that um there's so many voices of wisdom that we can from, right? That set me on a different trajectory to read this storybook realized that I had a mother who loved me just as dearly father. And what did that mean to me? So by age 12, I was openly discussing this and talking about and the implications for me were real and immediate. Real and immediate. That the version of God that I was willing to believe in, I was willing to worship, was one that had men and women as partners together. That was the nature of God to me. And it was unshakable. And so now when I think about how many steps I've had to in my life where I had to trust my loving heavenly parents, I think that started at a very young age when I was able to in both paternal and maternal love. And that weaving together swaddled me for so many steps in my life that were challenging or demanding or asking me to stretch in ways that were uncomfortable. And I think that was one of the reasons that Bethany and I first wrote The Girls' Guide and Boys' Guides to Heavenly Mother, of those you can get a Deseret Book. I think that the reason that was such a stretch for me, or was so important to write those, to stretch to do that, was I realized that being loved by a mother and father mattered. And all of us have different earth circumstances, and our earthly circumstances are not ideal or lovely. In fact, there's this book I just heard about from a friend Mother Hunger, and it talks about the damage that can come when a person does not have maternal love from a young age. And while it's talking about earthly mothers, I thought is, there's a thread of truth on the heavenly side too, That the lack of an eternal mother, a perfect mother figure, I think could do a lot of things to heal people and heal the I think that there's wisdom in having this partnership, this partnership be our model. Um, and I don't mean necessarily from like a but I mean like in a way of even the nature of God is to work together. And I think sometimes in Zion it's very easy to not want to together, right? And so I think um coming at my origin story of Sephara's being so deeply rooted in this maternal love that I escaped a lot the wounds that can come from not having that.

Heather: 19:26

Yeah. I that's something I have been feeling really strongly about just the need for both men and women to feel connected to the feminine divine and to feel that the stories of the women in the scriptures matter to them just as much as the men.

McArthur: 19:48

Well, you posted that the other day and it blew my mind. You were talking about how if we only know the nature of God a from a how God has interacted primarily with men, Then that's a different interaction. So I have five brothers and two sisters, and and and if we only had my brother's accounts of our childhood, right? Because earth life is like being in a childhood, right? Yeah, our childhood would look and sound different. So yes, there's overlap. We went on family vacations together, we're all played sports together. I mean, like there's there's some overlap there, and distinct differences. And so I think about these stories as you're posting it's about humans' childhood, right? I mean, earth life is our is our humanity's childhood. Yeah. And so we're hearing about these childhood stories, but we're only hearing about how the father mostly talked to the sons.

Heather: 20:45

Yeah.

McArthur: 20:45

And that is not a holistic view of what a family operates like.

Heather: 20:50

As I worked on my Jehovah and Women in the Old Testament something that really opened up for me was this the way viewed a mother, the word mother didn't mean woman who gave to another mini human. It was such a leadership role. It was such a more expansive title. Eve was the mother of all living before she ever had a child. And and so I I love this idea, you know, where you're talking about how it's it's such a partnership, it's such an expansive view of what parenting looks like in that it wasn't, oh, mom in the kitchen making us dinner. No, she's a leader, she's included. This is very not complementarianism, which we get a way our Bible has been translated.

McArthur: 21:40

Yeah, yeah. And I would say I didn't have I didn't give birth to I was 30 until 41. Okay, so like I don't know how old I'll be when I die, but guess about half, right? About half my life I spent not being a biological mother. And yet at the same time, I was 100% a bold nurturer. I mean, I was a young woman's. President and nurturing these inner city youth who I love And I was a businesswoman and I nurtured my colleagues' right? I was in charge of setting up policies that would make them and develop. And so, like, there's all kinds of ways that you can um be a maternal force in the world, right? And 100% cooking dinner is one of those. That's not my specialty, but I have a friend who's an foodie, and I appreciate that what she puts into the world is nourishment, and and that's how she also nurture nurtures. And I think understanding that the gifts we bring to the table are acceptable to God, uh, I think is one of the most important things about the story as we were talking about. And I love the work you've done because here's the thing is we pick our manuals, I don't know, um, a few years ago, we no longer use the sharing time manuals. But the sharing time manuals, 2015 and 2016, someone did research on and found that out of 52 weeks, because that's back when we had sharing time every week, only five of the stories had a female protagonist in them. So it wasn't just like Moses, Abraham, Nephi, it was the paid their tithing was a little boy, which means we're only about women 10% of the time. Or the number of people, women who speak in general now. And then those talks get, you know, regurgitated for the next six months worth of lessons, right? If we are not inviting women's perspective, experience, stories, leadership. I didn't even know about the daughters of Zelophehad until we were writing our book. We wrote The Girls Who Choose God from the Bible and we one more story, and it came to Beth Bethany in a vision. She came back to our work meeting and was like, I heard the Have you ever heard of it? No, never.

Heather: 23:51

Yeah, right?

McArthur: 23:52

It's these girls going to petition the prophet, and then God They speak right.

Heather: 23:57

Yeah.

McArthur: 23:58

Like that is a bold, insane story that never made it to any that I read since growing up, right? It was never in any manual. I slept a little bit through seminary, so maybe it was in and I missed it.

Heather: 24:11

Well, I don't know. I I was pretty much awake during seminary and I missed it I, you know, when I wrote about the daughters uh last year, it was new to me. I was, I felt like I was learning the story for the first

McArthur: 24:24

Those girls got Judaic law changed. Yeah. The law of the land changed with these girls, with these girls knowing it wasn't just. Right. And so there's this whole conversation happening right now young women in our church. I don't know if you've seen I it's always odd to place a podcast in like a time, but if you go back and read what was happening in the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News at this period of when we're recording this, August 2026, there's huge about young women leaving the church.

Heather: 24:53

Yeah.

McArthur: 24:53

And what is amazing to me is that it is such a ripe It's an opportunity to listen to like the daughters of to say, hey, we see things that are not just. We have an opportunity to hear. Right.

Heather: 25:10

And and one of the critical parts of that story to me that I see you doing and I see other women doing is it lists who they and they went to Moses, the prophet, they went to Eleazar, the high priest, and then it says, and the entire congregation, made sure everyone knew they were petitioning the high and the prophet, and they're they had a megaphone. And and I just find that such a powerful part of the story in that I'm not gonna just quietly um be upset or you know, air my conversation. Yeah. I'm gonna let the entire congregation know something isn't here and something needs to change. And you do that with your voice, with your artwork, with your books. I mean, you're letting the entire congregation know we need to have a full partnership in how we worship. And and I think importantly, too, the men, young you have a boy's guide to the heavenly to heavenly mother. That's just as critical.

McArthur: 26:27

And I have to say, I'm trying to remember who said this. Do you remember who said this? Someone said, um do things and like make change in such a way that people want to join you, right? Yeah, and I'm not talking about tone policing, I'm talking as we make change, doing it in a kind way, doing it in a not way, doing it in a way that's not like I want to be clear. I'm not lobbying for like just police your tone and make sure every time you talk that you sound sweet, or that's what I'm about. Yeah. Right. But I am talking about being classy, right? That that I was talking to my daughter about how one of the I love so much about um Barack Obama and Michelle Obama is classy they are. Michelle's famous quote, when they go low, we go high. Right. That is really important that as we're working to make that we're doing it in a respectful, kind way. Like we're all human beings who all come to the table with different perspectives. And if we cultivate in our heart respect for someone else's abilities, life perspective experience, then that means that we can work on change together, even when we don't agree, When we come to the table, and I don't mean not coming in Anger, there can be righteous indignation, 100%. But when we come diminishing someone else, when we right, that's when I think that we're being counterproductive because we're rotting our own souls, right? You rot your own soul when you choose to interact that way. And so some of the diatribe I see online is just painful to Again, I have no problem disagreeing that with people with me, with each other. But the tone sometimes that I see being used, especially online, generally not in person. People in person tend to be a little bit more uh bound by social convention, is it calls us all to repentance, right? That we need to watch ourselves in in how we speak.

Heather: 28:37

Yeah. I there's um I I I'm gonna butcher this quote, but it's a quote I've heard about in the law world where they say, if the facts are not on your side, argue the law. If the law is not on your side, bang the podium. And and I feel like there's a lot of podium banging going on. And it's like, but if the facts are on your side, if you can just I don't even want to say justified, but like if if what saying is true, like the daughters, what they were saying was true. The law was broken, it needed to get fixed.

McArthur: 29:12

Or what was what is Heavenly Mother is our doctrine Like that that is our doctrine of the LDS faith.

Heather: 29:20

So there's no reason to bang a podium about that because just fact. It's it's the reality of what the doctrine for the LDS church is.

McArthur: 29:30

And and so But we can unabashedly stand at the podium and truth.

Heather: 29:36

Right. And and we don't have to be, like you point out, you know, and and nasty about it. We can abide by the social conventions, but we can also be bold and absolutely speak clearly and um I used to teach at BYU and I used to tell my students we we really have away from the true meaning of the word argument because we think of when I'm going to give you an argument, that means I'm going to fight with you, I'm gonna be argumentative, I'm be you know, argument just means I'm going to state my case. That's it. It's a neutral term, actually. And and you um have done what I would say very compelling arguments without being argumentative, without creating that without creating the the podium banging that just gets people turned off.

McArthur: 30:35

Well, and here's what I realized one day when when I heard was um someone disagreed with me about the need to talk about Heavenly Mother, and I thought I have so much joy in my mother loves me, takes nothing away from my brother or loving me, but I have so much joy in my mother loving me that she doesn't deserve to be tainted by human frailty. So we talk about like protecting, you know, one of the um taboos that got circulated was that Heavenly Father had to Heavenly Mother. And we know that's never been that's never been talked as never as a prophet said this. This is just people making stuff up, right? Which is fair. We all try to explain things, right? But what I think is interesting about that is one, she's so she doesn't need to be protected, right? But then two, if we're gonna talk about protecting her, should talk about it in terms of not letting someone's of her or my um tension over that. I don't need to feel tension that someone doesn't think Mother is important because I I don't need to defend her, right? And and in my heart, I have so much joy. I don't need that joy tainted by someone saying, are you talking about this? Like, well, that's okay. Well, you don't want to talk about it, but it makes me happy talk about it. So I'm gonna talk about it. And so I think that there's no reason to let um quibbling uh away from joy.

Heather: 32:11

We don't have the power to change God. When I was younger, I very much was, oh, heavenly mother is little bird we gotta put in a cage and lock the key because we don't want her to fly away and get hurt by the predators, I mean, that I I grew up with that kind of belief system. But what I've come to find over the decades is I don't have the power to hurt her feelings, I don't have the power to diminish her who she is.

McArthur: 32:39

I'm just a little kid here on this earth, and so I don't If you think about the very nature of God, it must be limitless love. Yeah. Because how else could our heavenly parents stand their Right, yeah. Really? I mean, look around at the world in all of the ways we're one another right now, currently, right now, exactly today.

Heather: 33:01

Yeah.

McArthur: 33:01

And their only way you could literally be the definition of was you have to have limitless, limitless love for your Because, right? How how otherwise would we how would they bear it?

Heather: 33:17

Yeah, in your book Um Mother, Mother in Heaven, a Gospel Essay Study Guide, um, it's curated by both you and Trina Cottle and Ashley Carnicelli. Am I saying her last name right? Yep, yep. Um, you tell this story that I found so humbling but also and it was of a woman standing in Walmart. Do you want to tell that story?

McArthur: 33:42

So this was the story that um that made us write the cherished books. So we wanted to put some testimony out in the world. So people were often saying, Heavenly Mother exists, but have anything to do with her. She doesn't communicate with us, we don't know anything it. And I thought, but I I keep hearing people's stories who are and telling me about their interaction, their moment when Mother came to them in the depths of their despair when they in childbirth, when their husband had passed away. Like I kept hearing all these Heavenly Mother stories that really compelling. And then finally, a woman walks up to me at church in Brooklyn and she says, You're the Heavenly Mother lady? Yeah. I'd like to tell you my Heavenly Mother story. I'm like, I want to hear it. And she told me about how she was living in Rexburg, Idaho in Walmart. And she had been praying, actively praying, that she would be able to see and love other people and not see them as the And she was standing in Walmart in the pharmaceutical aisle, she said, all of a sudden, she had this rising awareness of single person in that Walmart. She said, There's some guy back in the corner buying a gun, and some kid having a meltdown on aisle 287, and some woman buying her groceries, and there were just hundreds of people in this Walmart. And I had this a rising awareness of them. And with that awareness came this like such love that she to take a breath, right? Such love that it was overwhelming to her that she could awareness and love for every single person who is different her in this Walmart. And then a voice came to her and said, Now you know a very portion of the love I have for these my children as their And it was that story that made me say, We need to write the books. Yeah. So on Amazon you can find Cherish One and Cherish Two, and like 500 pages of collected vignettes of stories like this, Heavenly Mother has reached and touched someone's life, and they are amazing. Amazing to hear what how someone's life trajectory has has because they felt a mother's love.

Heather: 36:04

So I want to quote you to you, if that's okay.

McArthur: 36:08

Uh-oh. Uh-oh. You never know if these things stand the test of time.

Heather: 36:12

No, I think this is gonna be fine. So in the same book, I you know, the Mother in Heaven book, you talk about this eternal prototype and how Heavenly Mother is prototype, an eternal one for us on who we are to become. And you and you the title of of this section is actually Becoming, which I'm a I'm a big fan of that word. Um my students know I talk about it a lot in class, but here's here's what you say, and I just found this so it stopped me in my tracks, and I want to talk to you about it. You said there is a gap between the development of the soul have now and a beautifully godly soul. And then you go on to say there are many, many ways to invest in soul development. And um and and that it take and then you go on to talk about how it takes investment. We actually with intention, we have to bridge this gap. And then you end by saying, I know we often think we don't have time or money, but give the gift of an eternal model to your however that looks for you. And my question is, how does that look for you to bridge gap?

McArthur: 37:31

Uh, I'm sitting in a brand new city that six months ago was not on my radar. So six months ago, a professor called me from a graduate and said, I think you should come to my program. Here's why. I just heard you speak at the Compass Gallery and at a And here's why I think that um you could benefit and that you could contribute to this place. And so I packed up our entire life and world and shifted us that I can go to graduate school.

Heather: 38:03

Wow.

McArthur: 38:04

And yeah, and and that is not how everyone has to do it,

Heather: 38:08

Right.

McArthur: 38:09

Um, and I didn't do that willy-nilly. I did it with consideration for what was happening in the rest of my family's lives, right? I sat down with my youngest because she was going to be the most impacted. And I said, you know, I could do this online or I could do or I could do this. And she goes, actually, I kind of want an adventure. And so I was like, let's go. So we're calling it study abroad. Study abroad, Berkeley.

Heather: 38:33

Right?

McArthur: 38:33

That we're studying abroad for a little while. We're going back home after this. But I think that um it doesn't have to be that dramatic, So honestly, it's feeling a little bit surreal. I just painted four four rooms in this house that we moved and like am remodeling like a kitchen so we can be here and like like it. I I have a tendency to do it a little over the top, right? And so, like, I'm just saying you do not have to invest right? But I do think women need soul investment. So I was talking to my husband, and at his business, they have a line item for professional development. People get a budget at their company to learn a new skill, That the the company sees it as leveling up. If you learn a new coding skill, if you learn a new HR if you read a book, right? Like I think that good companies understand that people continue learning and growing. They invest in training. They inver, I mean, companies invest in development, And so when you look at that and you think about, oh, I invest in my children's development, right? I mean, yeah, you have college, but you also have soccer and piano lessons and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? And I never once have questioned that those time and are a bad investment, right? And so I think that women sometimes somewhere along the way, lost this idea that we're also worth investing in. And I want to be clear, it can happen in such small ways. And so it can happen in 15 minutes every day, right? It can be like I carve out 15 minutes, and it doesn't matter if the dishes sit in the sink for another 15 minutes, or it matter if my kid has to wait for 15 minutes, right? Like, and there's times and seasons to this. I get that. There's there's no telling a two-year-old to wait 15 minutes, right? Right. Um fair. Um, but I think then you get your partner, right? You'd be like, partner, you come get the two-year-old for 15 I get 15 minutes after you walk through the door for me to go X, Y, Z, like go read a poetry book, you know, take a nap, like do something so that you're investing in this growth. And and instead of having this idea that that soul investment is selfish, um, that's taken away, right? You're taken away from your family by taking this time, it is handing your family, as I say in that the passage you it's handing your family a divine model. We believe in eternal development. And that's not just the eternal development that happens the way as you are forced to become more patient because you to wring your kid's neck, right? But it's also the development to intentionally say, my to grow and take a stock, take an inventory, right? A friend of mine, I've told the story before, but it's worth again, was a mother to nine children. And she said, My mother muscles are super grown, super right? Like those are solid muscles. Yeah. But she said, I was also given talents in singing and dancing in theater. And we know from the talent stories that when you bury your they disappear, they atrophy.

Heather: 42:06

Yeah.

McArthur: 42:07

And so she said, Those are God-given talents. Those are God-given talents, and I've let them atrophy. And so she started reclaiming them little by little by in the theater at our kids' school at um taking a Thursday night class. I mean, like, I think just trying to trying to get rid of, you have to do it kind of in stages. You have to say, one, soul investment is a divine model. Two, I gotta kick the guilt to the curb, right?

Heather: 42:38

Yeah.

McArthur: 42:39

Three, I've got to take stock of which part of me, where are God-given talents that need developed, or what talent has not been given to me and I want to grow it, right? Like there's there's talents we can reach for too. And then figure out what it takes. And it's okay if that requires um effort and oomph from and children and friends, and like it's okay, right? It's okay to say, my kids are not gonna be in charge of dinner on Wednesday nights because Wednesday night I'm gonna go take a watercolor class.

Heather: 43:09

Yeah, right.

McArthur: 43:10

It's okay. And I think those kind of intentionality is how we can invest in souls. Yeah.

Heather: 43:20

And I this is a little personal, but um, back in so my kids all still quite young underfoot. I think my youngest was five, six years old. I went to Haiti for a week on a humanitarian trip. And by myself, I mean, as the family member, I was the only member who went. My husband and the kids stayed home. And I had a woman come up to me and heard that I had gone to for for a week, by the way. I was gone ten days. And she goes, Oh, that's so amazing that you did that. I but I never could because I love my children too much to

McArthur: 44:01

You're like, well, I'm so glad you pointed out I don't love my children as much as you do.

Heather: 44:07

I'm embarrassed to tell you my response. I'll go ahead and maybe I'll edit it out later, but I'll you what I said. I said, Well, lucky for me, I don't love my children, so it was pretty easy to believe. Right. But and obviously, obviously that's not true, but I point out how ridiculous your comment is. It was really what my goal was. But I have found, and and I went to graduate school when my was 14, my youngest was eight. I taught my five kids each how to make two dinners, and we ate 10 different dinners for two years. There you go. Because they all cooked. But what I what I what shocked me, I think, about that was the lack of support I got from other women doing it. Yeah.

McArthur: 44:51

And that was the step number two, kick the guild to the

Heather: 44:54

Yeah. And and so I would love to expand on that a little more. Fortunately, I didn't let what other people were telling me what I did. I mean, I was like, well, I know I'm doing what I want to do. And I mean, I would even get comments like, so your husband's gonna let you go to grad school? And I'm like, let me? What? I never even thought to ask his permission. What are you talking about? I mean, we canceled together and made sure it fit into plan, or you know, I wasn't inconsiderate of the need that we're gonna do.

McArthur: 45:26

There's no lead in there.

Heather: 45:27

Yeah, but we weren't, I wasn't asking for permission. And anyway, it was odd.

McArthur: 45:32

But I there's I think um I think it's really helpful though to have a doctrinal framework for it. Yeah, right. Like, like for some of us, that's that's it, it didn't even your mind, right? Yeah, so for you, that was an easy step. For some people, I think a doctrinal framework is super And so let's be clear. We believe in eternal progression. Eternal progression is not just progressing in one area, right? And so if you are progressing because you're learning by staying home and your kids, yep, that's one area. You're you're definitely learning by being a full-time full-time caregiver is an extremely growth-oriented role.

Heather: 46:13

Yeah.

McArthur: 46:14

And on top of that, there's a doctrinal framework for having an expansive soul, right? We believe in eternal progression. We believe we are going to become more godlike. We're going to believe that all things are added to us. We believe that what we take with us in the next life is the and relationships we've cultivated. So if your soul investment is just to cultivate a friendship, that works.

Heather: 46:36

Yeah.

McArthur: 46:36

Right.

Heather: 46:37

Yeah.

McArthur: 46:38

So taking stock of your life and saying, what am I missing? Where are the uh where are the gaps in my soul? Right. So think about it, even as a parent. I don't know about you, but I do this as a parent where I look at my kids' life and I think, oh, they're doing really area A, B, and C, but D, they need some brushing up, right? Yeah. And whether or not that D is they need to eat more healthy or they need to have better manners, or they need to, you know, be pushed to be a little bit more adventurous. I mean, like whatever it is, as a parent, we often take stock and say, what opportunities of growth do I need to work into my child's life? And our own souls as women deserve that same soul assessment investment.

Heather: 47:19

Yeah. I hearing you talk about that reminds me of in our family. I don't know how other um family units might uh feel about but it worked for our family. And in our family, you graduate with a passport and with a without the rest of the family behind you. So we essentially would say to the kids, pick a country where you want to go serve, and here's your passport. Goodbye. Go, go do it. And um, and three of my five kids, I wish I had done it with five, but I didn't figure it out until child number three, was days after high school graduation, you were on a plane to to live for three months without any of us. And I remember my my middle child, who was the first to do it, he came to me with tears in his eyes and he said, Mom, I've about it, and I just don't think I'm supposed to go to Alaska. And I said, Well, go back and pray again because I know you going. And and he did. He went and he had an amazing time and it changed his it developed confidence in him that he I don't think he would have had had he not been so far away and couldn't come when things got tough. I'm starting to think that's how Heavenly Mother is with I know this is good for you. I know there's a gap. I I knew my kids needed to be outside of that Utah bubble and see what the world was like. And in Ketchikan, Alaska, the world comes to you because it's a cruise ship port. So they were meeting people from all over the world, all all languages, and having to learn how to interact with them customer service ways. And and I think, isn't that what Heavenly Mother does? Is she's like, hey, I know what's best, I know what's gonna And it's just letting her guide us towards those gaps, letting her show us those gaps.

McArthur: 49:18

Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing is we are told that God is our prototype, you know, that we are to become more godlike. And I think sometimes we think of that just in terms of like and charity, which is 100% valid, but it's also just in the of growth, yeah, right. That we believe in growing and learning. And so I have found that um when faced with an opportunity to say, uh, and and growing can be challenging, can be right? And it can be exhausting, right? But I also think that there's something enlivening about for the next iteration of who we are to become. Yeah, right.

Heather: 50:09

And I I was um rereading the girl's guide to heavenly mother, and I came across a section that really jumped out at me this time. And I it made me think about how there's some gaps or some that really Heavenly Mother is best equipped to guide a son of her unique characteristics versus maybe um our our father's characteristics. And so I wanted to just share this. So this comes out of your out of the book you wrote, A Girls to Heavenly Mother, and you said um that it's talking about made in her image. And I you know, we as women are always told we're made in God's image, and then they show us a man as in the artwork, right?

McArthur: 51:00

And you say the artistry is catching up, yeah.

Heather: 51:03

It's it's getting better, definitely. And it's and she and you say your body is exquisite, your your breast, your hips, your womb, and all their varieties powerful women parts. And then you say something that I really resonated with. You said, We may not feel that way every day, but that's okay. But try to embrace your body as a gift from your heavenly And what that made me think about is how hard social media, the world, society, whatever label you want to set up on want women so dissatisfied with their bodies so that we will into this multi-billion dollar industry to change our face, skin, our thighs, our hips, our breasts, our womb, our whatever. Yep. Um, have you found ways to either for yourself or as you help other women or counsel with other women to embrace that we are created in the image of a heavenly mother and to embrace that body as a gift?

McArthur: 52:10

That's a great question. And I think um super valid at whatever stage you're at. And so Bethany and I wrote the Girls and Boys Guides because oldest was becoming a tween and asking hard questions. And we'd realized that the answer to almost all of her was Heavenly Mother. So she was asking, Who am I? Who am I gonna become? Do I matter? Right, and are there women in the scheme of things, right? Uh there was a recent post about a girl asking about not the sacrament, right? And so I think this age begins to open up and start to have um as they're looking around the world. No, obviously the best thing you can do for a kid is keep off social media, right? So, like, number one, just do that, right?

Heather: 53:01

Yeah.

McArthur: 53:02

But at the same time, I think it's true kind of at every stage. And so um for a young one, social media, keeping them off media is great. But then um for women who've given birth, your body If you haven't given birth, as you get older, your body changes, right? You hit paramenopause and all of a sudden your body is like in hormone la la land, right? And your body changes. And so I think um one, you just have to have kind of a guiding principle, right? That um heavenly mother is not there for adornment. Yeah, she is not there to be a side piece, yeah. Yeah, right, that heavenly mother is is the central figure of her life and a shared epicenter in the godly existence Father, right? And so if you really believe um in that order of the then you understand that her role is not um auxiliary, I say, and that it's not to sit on the side and look pretty, Now I'm a person who cares deeply about aesthetics. My husband laughs at me because if I walk into a room and it feels off to me, like I have to fix it till I can sit in and line and form till it feels beautiful to me, right? And um and so that matters. I'm not saying aesthetics don't matter, but I'm saying the and our worth is not our aesthetic. Yeah, and so it's it's one, worth is inherent, and two, we're on this earth life to become and to do, to contribute. And those are not about um what you look like, right? And I also think if you look around the world, something actively done. So I think about this. If you're a village girl, back whoever win, right? Then then you you you saw real women all the time. You you may have had one lovely girl in your village, right? Yeah, but like generally, like everyone just looked normal we're in a normal village, versus when you're looking online or you're looking at movies, like you know, media that we can then all of a sudden the normal becomes not normal, right? That is not what normal people look like. Um, so I think one, but even before you airbrush and and things like that, right? Before we actually make people not look that, but like just what we're exposed to. So two or three things. I pay attention when I'm travel or in an airport, like around. And this isn't about comparison, but this is about the baseline is not a select view, right? So, like check your baseline. Two, I had a period of time where I chose to not look in a for about a month. I'm trying to remember how long I went, it may have been a Yeah. Where I was just like, I am not going to live considering what I look like. I want to say it was a month. I can't, I can't swear to that. But it was a long period of time, enough that it was a thing, right? Where I just thought, I am not going to make this be my touch point every day. Right. And um, and it was fascinating, right? That it just became close to meaningless, right? My mother looks at herself in the mirror and smiles every day. I've caught my mom doing this. I've never asked her about it, but I just love. I can walk in a room, my mom's brushed her teeth, she you spits, rinses, whatever, looks in the mirror, smiles, and goes about her day, right? And I love that she smiles at herself, right? So I think that there's some things you can kind of bake in. Or my daughter and I were talking recently, we were traveling, and it became readily apparent that ideas of beauty were in this place. You know, that noses and bodies and shoulders and shapes were totally different than what we see held up in our um in our neck of the woods, right? And I just think that understanding our worth is inherent, our purpose is not to just adorn the world.

Heather: 57:29

Yeah.

McArthur: 57:30

Right. And bake that in.

Heather: 57:32

I one thing, this is this is gonna sound like an odd Only my hairdresser really knows this, and that is I really I had gray hair. It's something that I've always wanted. It's not in my gene pool. My mother died with no gray hair, my great grandfather died with a head of black hair. I've always considered gray hair to be a thing of beauty. I've just I've always loved it. And during COVID, people didn't get to go to their and I got obsessed with watching people w grow out their hair, and I got really jealous, honestly. And and I learned to celebrate that they could do that. And um, and so it's now become kind of my my mission in life when I could when I run into people and it's clear they're their gray out, they've got two, three inches of gray hair. I walk up to them and say, Keep going, I can see how beautiful your hair is gonna be. And I've had women come up to me and then respond and just say, Oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed, and you know, and and I if we could just celebrate each other's bodies too, right?

McArthur: 58:45

Yeah, yeah.

Heather: 58:46

And and not be I I need to let go of that jealousy of people have beautiful gray hair. My my hairdresser, I always say, Is there a way to like put some gray in my hair? She goes, Heather, I have literally spent my whole career how to not do that.

McArthur: 59:03

You just have to go against the flow. You're doing your own thing, brother.

Heather: 59:08

And it's just learn how to be grateful with the body, Heavenly Mother. And Heavenly Mother's probably up there going, I gave you hair and you're now wanting someone else.

McArthur: 59:16

Something else. Something else.

Heather: 59:17

As I say this with dyed blonde hair. But um, but I I've I'm as I'm listening to you, I'm just it really, if like you say, don't look in the mirror, but look at others. And look at how beautiful.

McArthur: 59:33

And not by not by comparison. Look at others to look at the variety and diversity and the of difference.

Heather: 59:41

Yeah, and not say, Oh, I wish I had gray hair like you, but like, oh, look at the beautiful hair Heavenly Mother gave And and look at and I I remember the first time I went to I was so scared to go because all the media tells me how the French women are. And I've bought into that lie, whole hook, line, and sinker. And I was like, I'm gonna go as this middle-aged overweight and everyone's gonna judge me and go, Well, clearly you're from America because you're for your body shape. Oh my gosh, guess what? They all look like us.

McArthur: 1:00:17

Turns out there's just a whole bunch of normal people. Uh-huh.

Heather: 1:00:24

And and it really woke me up to just how beautiful the of our body shapes really are.

McArthur: 1:00:29

Yeah, yeah. And I think um when women are treated as though their worth is auxiliary, yeah, or um to uh be an adornment instead of an right? Like um Ann Pimentel and I wrote a book called Change Makers, and it was about how women changed the face of the LDS church, um, impacted the church sometimes very dramatically and more subtly. And uh, they made changes around them. And what I loved about doing this research is some of these even though they're historical, they have photographs of and they're wildly different. Wildly different.

Heather: 1:01:20

Yeah.

McArthur: 1:01:21

And so when I think about this, and I think about all of the that are called to work, right? We are called to contribute to this earth life. And that doesn't mean your worth is based on your work. Don't get that confused. But it means that we are called, we are given time, we're resources, we're given talents to work, to contribute. And I think that when I looked at this book of all the ways these women were contributing, like, okay, there was yoga instructor, so that was a little bit body dependent. But every other woman in that book, her contribution had to do with what her body looked like.

Heather: 1:02:01

Yeah.

McArthur: 1:02:02

Her her external vessel, right?

Heather: 1:02:05

Yeah.

McArthur: 1:02:05

And so if I'm if I'm worried about that in my head, it me, and I'm not trying to poo-poo, but just it feels to me get to work.

Heather: 1:02:17

Yeah.

McArthur: 1:02:17

Right.

Heather: 1:02:18

Yeah.

McArthur: 1:02:18

And I think that is, you know, I have three daughters, and my daughters that their contribution to this world is their unique soul, right? And um, and that's where time, attention, money, resources is is oriented, right?

Heather: 1:02:40

Well, and to loop it back to those women who anointed Jesus, exactly what they did. Their contribution was theirs, and they knew who and and wanted to contribute and what what resources they had, and it was acceptable. Like like to your point, it was acceptable in all the cases, no matter how different. Um anointing heads and anointing feet traditionally meant different. And he didn't seem bothered by whether it was his feet or his head that got anointed. Right. Right. Um they did what they could, and and and that's that's powerful insight that you've given us. So thank you so much, McArthur, for your time and your and for letting us um not literally but proverbally sit at feet and learn from you.

McArthur: 1:03:33

I sit together. Sit together. Yeah.

Heather: 1:03:36

Well, uh you're you're you're just a magical force on this and we are lucky that you we get to spend this time and space with you. So I'd love um for you to give just maybe some closing or closing advice. If you if there's a listener out there who's perhaps or excited, but just maybe maybe something's holding her back or him back. And maybe there's just something that's like, oh, that great, but how what advice would you give them to help them that but yeah.

McArthur: 1:04:13

Um I would say two sources um have almost always worked for me. Um, Google.

Heather: 1:04:24

Right.

McArthur: 1:04:26

And so I'm I'm serious. You get on Google and you say, for instance, um, I recently this thing about sword yoga using a sword. I know, using a sword to do like a series of formations, and I thought that sounds absolutely fascinating. I wonder if there's sword yoga near me. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Google, go find out, right? As something as random as that, right? I love zydeco. Okay, for the record, I've not done sword yoga yet, but it's on my list.

Heather: 1:05:00

Okay.

McArthur: 1:05:01

But I love zydeco dancing. And so I moved to this new city and I was like, Zydeko. In fact, I said to my kid, we're standing there, and we start to stand up, and I'm feeling a little creaky because spending four days painting rooms, right? And so, like, whoo, feeling creaky. I'm a woman in my 50s, right? And then the music kicks in and I started to move, and I felt this moment where my heart burst with joy. I could feel it. It just went joy, right? And I'm telling my daughter this story, and she looks at me and she goes, I saw that moment, mama. I saw that happen.

Heather: 1:05:36

Wow.

McArthur: 1:05:37

Right. So Google found me that zyda go dance, right? Like I was interested in it. I knew I loved it. I knew I wanted to infuse more joy in my life. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use some Google, right? Use me some Google to talk like my southern ladies, right? And anything that Google can't answer, your heavenly parents And so you turn to God and you say, I need more joy in my life, or I want to develop my talents, or I see that I'm plateaued I'm stuck and I I want to stretch and grow. Like help me guide my paths. Give me courage, give me openness, give me insight. Like whatever, whatever it is you're you're missing in that maybe it's courage, maybe it's time, maybe who knows, right? Maybe it's just the comfort of status quo. Whatever it is, you ask your heavenly parents to be that And I think that's one of the beautiful things about our brother in Jesus. That Jesus makes up the gap, right? Whatever lack I have, there's a scripture that says that I and all things shall be added unto you. And so whenever I have a gap, whatever that is, whatever that is, I ask God to give it to me for that period of time for my needs. And then in return, I concentrate, and it's not that it's However, I almost always remember to say, and I will take I have learned and I will use it for good. Right. And so I will use, I will open my house, right? I had to I had to find a place to live when I'm switching and I said, help me find a house and I will use it for good, And I'm gonna go to graduate school and get more my life and I will use it for good, right? And so I just think that um between Google and our heavenly you can answer most things.

Heather: 1:07:37

Well, and I I'll I'm gonna combine those a little bit. I I find Googling with the spirit has there. I ask I my husband always jokes I have really good Google He's like, Oh, you have the best Google fingers. And there you go. Sometimes I have the spirit. Say, tell me what to Google, you know.

McArthur: 1:07:57

Absolutely. Well, that's perfect. Absolutely, right? I love that. Like used Google to stretch our knowledge as far as you can, and then good your heavenly parents wouldn't need stretch beyond you have.

Heather: 1:08:07

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you so much, McArthur. This has been such a delight, and I appreciate all the things that you do in those.

McArthur: 1:08:18

I love getting to spend time with you and your wisdom, and it's good for all of us. It's good for all of us to remember eternal things. So appreciate the pause in my day. I was painting before this conversation, I'll be painting after this conversation, but in between, I get to have you know a to lift.

Heather: 1:08:34

So and there might be people painting while listening to conversation.

McArthur: 1:08:38

Even better. Put me in your ear when you're painting. We can paint together.

Heather: 1:08:42

That sounds amazing. Okay, well, thank you so much.

McArthur: 1:08:45

Absolutely. Take care.

Heather: 1:08:51

Thanks for joining me at The Approachable Jesus. Please share this episode with a friend. That's how these conversations find the people who My newsletter, current course offerings, and all my latest are at timesoffaith.com. Remember, Jesus is closer and more approachable than you