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15:34
Dude and Woman is a short bonus conversation following each full episode. Listen to the Terri Petersen episode first.
Being covered in clay isn't really protection. It's more like being told you're not worth uncovering.
That's what stuck with me after talking with Terri Petersen about a 700-year-old golden Buddha hidden under clay to keep it safe from thieves. I cling to the clay because I'm afraid of what it buries—a bad review I can't stop replaying, a compliment I toss out because it can't be true, the imposter syndrome I put on myself.
I remind Dude of something he told me years ago that I've never forgotten: I wish you would see yourself the way I see you.
We also end up deciding we are splotchy golden Buddhas.
The Approachable Jesus is a Times of Faith production. Opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of the podcast.
Good. So I got to talk to Terri Petersen, and I don't know if you remember who she is, but she interviewed me for her podcast, Latter-day Faith. That's right. Quite some time ago. And so she agreed to come back and do mine.
Bradford:
And awesome.
Heather:
So we had a great conversation, and she considers herself to be a Buddhist Mormon.
Bradford:
Okay.
Heather:
I've never heard of anybody who is that.
Bradford:
I well, I don't know that I've well, there are a couple of people that I've uh heard talk about other religions. They they yeah, I haven't heard them term themselves as Buddhist Mormon, but they have embraced probably Buddhism and other faith beliefs, and um, you know, in addition to their LDS or Mormon faith tradition, yeah.
Heather:
Yeah, and she actually knows quite a bit about the Buddhist um religion and stories and traditions, and it was really fascinating to hear what she had to say, and um she told a story of this gold Buddha that had the I think it was in Thailand, and they were so scared that people were gonna rob them of the Buddha and take it because of how valuable it was. So they covered it in clay, and it wasn't discovered for 700 years that this Buddha actually was gold because they were moving it and some clay chipped off, and underneath was this gold, and they peeled off the clay, and lo and behold, was this beautiful gold Buddha. And she compares it to women, and and I would think men too, um being covered in clay to hide their worth and to hide what they're really made of. And society puts this clay on them, culture puts clay on them, you know, institutions, whatever you want to call it, and and sometimes that can cause women to see themselves as clay.
Bradford:
And I I was I mean, imposter syndrome comes to mind, right? Uh a lot of people suffer with with imposter syndrome, and so they put the clay on themselves.
Heather:
Or they let other people them into putting the clay on themselves.
Bradford:
Yes, yeah. I sorry, I I shouldn't have said it's just them doing it, but um a lot of different factors.
Heather:
Yeah. And I think even just you look at social media, you look at commercials, you look at magazine ads, or you know, throughout time. I think this is a I think we we blame social media for a lot of this, but the reality is I remember what life was like before social media, and we still had these issues. I think it's feeling like you have a voice, feeling like you have intelligence, feeling like you have autonomy, sovereignty, um the ability to receive personal revelation as to what you should do with your life.
Bradford:
Yeah. There there are so many negative voices, um, external and internal, right? We that we struggle with. Um, but yeah, I'm I would imagine the external voices are significantly more and uh constant and then they just get amplified, and as as we have negative self-talk, uh it gets amplified by all these other external voices. And I uh it makes me uh think of this quote that I heard, you know, it's it takes 99 rights to forget one wrong. It is just a hugely imbalanced leaning towards negative than it is to the positive.
Heather:
So there could be a lot of positive in our life, but it's easy to for that to get drowned out by the Yeah, I remember years ago, um, you know, when I taught at BYU and you get student reviews, and it was so funny. I had these two reviews right back to back, right next to each other. And the first one was Professor Pack is the worst professor I've ever had, BYU should fire her. And then the second one was Professor Pack is the best professor I've ever had. Um they should give her a raise or something, you know, or hire her full-time or something like that. Exact opposite comments. Exactly the opposite. And which one did I take home? I'm the worst.
Bradford:
Yeah, I I mean it got to the point where I was reading the reviews for you as a buffer because the the negative ones had such a dramatic impact upon you, even yeah, even when they weren't true. It's you it still got absorbed.
Heather:
Yeah. And and I if if you asked me to list the positive things my students said in those reviews, I that's about the only one I remember, honestly. Um, but I can tell you a whole bunch of horrible things that were said about me. Yeah.
Bradford:
Well, also bring back in imposter syndrome or the self-doubt, the self, uh, the negative self-talk, right? So when that's in full bloom and there are positive compliments that come in, they get tossed out. It's like, oh, that's that's not real. They don't really think that, right?
Heather:
So it's it's like clinging to the clay, right? Like these are these are moments where someone's trying to ch help chip that clay off of you, and you're like, no, I want to hold on to the clay.
Bradford:
Yeah.
Heather:
And you just let that bounce off and not come into the gold that you are. And and we talked about it in the sense of Jesus seeing the Samaritan woman as gold when society might have seen her as clay, or we may even talk about her as clay today, would talk about her five husbands, talk about how she was living um unmarried with a man, and but we don't know her story, we don't know what was going on. And and so we can talk about her like she was clay, but Jesus knew she was gold, and he I don't think he sees the clay in any of us.
Bradford:
I was just gonna say, he sees us for who we really are, and that is as children, children with eternal opportunity and progression, growth, uh gold, right? We we can just call that gold, yeah, uh pure gold. And oh it's it's hard to remember that our heavenly parents and our savior see us for who we really are, not what we uh sometimes think of ourselves or the world may think of ourselves. Um, even even in the positive light, right? Some of that can be grandstanding. Um you know, it's we live in a challenging world.
Heather:
I we did something years ago, and you probably have no memory that we ever did this, and I can't even remember what's caused me to do it, because this it's just so outside of my personality to ever do anything like this.
Heather: But here's what happened:
I asked you to tell me um what's something
Heather:
you wish you could change about me, and I normally don't like seeking that kind of feedback out from people. Um I'm a Gen Xer too. Up one side and down the other. We don't like getting feedback typically. But anyway, you probab do you remember me asking you this question? And do you remember what you said?
Bradford:
Right now, no.
Heather:
I but I do I do want to say that sounds familiar, but I have no idea what I said or I I I don't want to put you on the spot and make you repeat it because you probably don't remember and I don't want to hear something different. But anyway, this is what you told me. I don't want to find out there's something else I need to change, but um you said I wish it's gonna make me cry to even say this because I've never forgotten this comment and it I've I've kept it with me all these years. You said, I wish you would see yourself the way I see you.
Bradford:
That sounds right.
Heather:
I've does that sound still true today?
Bradford:
Uh yes, but I I but I will say it's getting better.
Heather:
Mm, okay.
Bradford:
Yeah. And and it's been I mean, this is a result of you seeing who you are. Right? This uh our podcast. Your your podcasting, what you're building, what you're doing, because you're seeing who you are and what you can do and you're becoming. And and it's it's been awesome to see you grow into this and and have the confidence to do it.
Heather:
Hmm. Yeah. And and I I just I find that comment has gotten me through some really difficult times. Um, especially when you're not around, like when I'm doing something kind of scary or doing something in front of a bunch of people or stepping outside of my comfort zone. I just kind of say to myself, um, my husband sees me as someone who can do this.
Bradford:
Yeah.
Heather:
And so I'm gonna do it. And maybe I don't believe I can do it, but he does, and he wants me to believe this for myself. That's what he wishes he could change about me. And and so I I just go, you know what? I'm gonna do this until I believe it too.
Bradford:
Yeah. I that is so beautiful, and I'm I'm I'm humbled that that has stuck with you, and that that is inspiration for you. I humbled and thrilled.
Heather:
Um in my mind, I was this stay-at-home mom with five little kids changing diapers and um doing all the things that go with raising five kids born in six and a half years. I was in that phase of life with all those little ones around me.
Bradford:
Yeah. But let's be fair, you weren't just raising five kids, you were also incredibly involved in the community. And in you know, our our church congregation, um you were busy. You weren't just raising five kids, you were CEOing so many different organizations while raising five kids. And so I and I point that out because um yes, you've made progress in in your belief and ability to do and accomplish things, um but in reflecting back, you're still minimizing what you have done. You know, it's like I I was just doing housewife things, raising five kids. Oh my goodness, there's so much in that that is huge. But that isn't all you were doing. You're never doing just one thing.
Heather:
That is true.
Bradford:
Yeah.
Heather:
Yeah. I I've been reminded of that many times by many people. But anyway, well, I just I appreciate that I have been able to spend over three decades with you as someone who sees me as the who sees the gold underneath the clay, and you have helped me chip some of that clay away and and tell me to stop it when I'm trying to put more clay on. But it's it's had a huge impact on my life.
Bradford:
Um well and thank you for saying that. And it goes both ways. You have chipped away so much clay off of me because I'm very much an introvert, um have my own challenges from the past, but you have helped me overcome so much, and because I didn't have the belief in myself either, right? And and it has taken a lot of chipping away, and and part of that has to come for myself, being willing to let that be chipped away, because uh, you know, if I'm exposed, it I mean in a way that's feeling exposed, right? Uh, and that's uncomfortable. But I have grown, as you have grown, we have grown together. We have been helping each other let the gold shine. And and isn't that what our savior wants? He wants us to become refined gold. It's there. They again we our our heavenly parents and our savior, they see us for who we are, they want us to shine, they want us to shine their light. And and that's hard to do when we've got incredibly thick layers of clay on ourselves and we won't let it go. Yeah, but but you have absolutely helped me grow and and shine. Despite myself.
Heather:
Yep. We're just two little shiny golden Buddhas.
Bradford:
Yes. Still with clay.
Heather:
With a lot of clay on.
Bradford:
Yeah. We're we're letting a little gold shine through. How's that?
