Heather: 0:00

Hi, dude.

Bradford: 0:01

Hi, woman.

Heather: 0:03

How's it going?

Bradford: 0:05

It's going pretty good. How about for you?

Heather: 0:09

Really well. I um finally was able to have some time with Amy Jensen and interview her and talk to her um for The Approachable Jesus. And you know, she's such a busy woman. So much of our communication is over text or over notes on the same Google Doc or something. So there's something about conversation.

Bradford: 0:35

Glad you were able to connect with her. So what did you learn?

Heather: 0:40

Um, well, I I felt like going in, I already knew what she going to talk about because I've known her for so long and and but she managed to surprise me and I feel like I got some I always think of Amy as kind of the accidental advocate she was just going about her life doing her things. She was serving the stake young women and um and she just I think she was like, I'm gonna affect change and I'm gonna a social media account and get thousands of followers and I think she ever had that as a goal in her life, at least she indicated that to me. But circumstances happened where all of a sudden she's in the middle of something and and I think one of the insights I gained was just how much the women, the young women, the teenaged that she was serving impacted what she did. Because one thing that surprised me was initially when um had the calling and was invited to sit up on the stand, like, nah, I'm good. I don't want to. And here she is such a huge advocate for stuff like this now I'm like, wait, what? You've initially said no? And she says, but it was the young women that said, We'd love to be able to see you up on the stand and how important it was for the young women, yeah. And so that's why she got up there.

Bradford: 2:19

Well, that's cool. Uh it it just very service oriented, right? Because I mean, I've had opportunities to sit up on the Um you know, when you're speaking, you're sitting up on the Uh and that's not I mean, you're there for everybody to see, And who wants to be in the spotlight? I don't. Most people don't. So I I get the uncomfortableness of that, but when that you are advocating for and mentoring, uh, you know, asking for you to be there, it's like this this is meaningful for us. Um, you know, what do you say? It's it it changes the the paradigm and the opportunity to and bless those that you uh have stewardship over.

Heather: 3:20

Since Amy has started the Instagram account of Women on the Stand, many people have been able to make comments and and weigh in on this, men and women alike. And women who used to sit on the stand, or you know, and she out that there's still stakes who currently have women who up on the stand. It was just her geographic location that got rid of it. That women have said, oh, I never realized until I actually did it how much better I am at serving others when I can sit in a position where I can literally see them sitting in the I can see who's coming in late, I can see who's frustrated to take care of kids on the bench, I can see who's not coming at all, I can see who's missing. And they're like, this is just giving me a pulse on what's on with among the people that I'm serving, because now I'm in a position of being able to actually watch and see.

Bradford: 4:25

Um be more effective in your service.

Heather: 4:29

Mm-hmm.

Bradford: 4:30

Yeah.

Heather: 4:31

So yeah, it's not about, oh, look at me, I'm sitting in a

Bradford: 4:36

Right.

Heather: 4:37

And and so I've seen women basically criticize women who want to sit on the stand, like, well, why do you need that attention or why is that important to you? And and I think the better answer is if if it's helping the men to be able to sit up on the stand so they can be more effective leaders, why would we want why would we not want women to have that same opportunity to be a more effective leader?

Bradford: 5:08

Yeah. And I think further to that answer, it's it isn't about them. It isn't about wanting to be seen by everybody. It's it's truly service-oriented and being better

Heather: 5:24

I think there's a whole other reason for it that we don't about very much, and I think it's because especially like community where we don't get a lot of visitors, there's such high concentration of members of our church. Um, so that geographically our congregations only spanned what two or three wards or two or three streets or you know, maybe a suburban neighborhood or something. So we're not it's not like in New York City when we used to there, we got um visitors on the weekly every single week. We had people who had never stepped foot in our church before. Where I don't think that happens so much here in Utah. But for for the visitor, there is something about being able see who it is that is the leader of that congregation. And I know in the past I've gone to other churches and other and there's something like if nobody was up on the stand or was visibly running the show or whatever word you want to it would be like, who's in charge here? What's going on? You know, and there's just and even I would say, even if I'm another LDS congregation or I'm brand new to a congregation, I would love to know what the Relief Society president looked like. Right. Or who physically is the Young Women president if I've got daughters, then I know who to walk up to and say, Oh, you're Young Women president. I've we just moved into the ward and I have a 13-year-old girl. It it I or if that woman were to walk up to you and say, Hi, new, blah, blah, blah, and you're like, why are you talking to me? But if you already can see visibly because they were on the that, oh, this is the Young Women president. This is someone you're gonna want to get to know. I don't know. I think it just creates more clarity. It's so easy to feel lost. It's so easy for people to not even know you're new. I one thing that Amy advocates for a lot is collaborative where she would like to see both men and women in church working together to solve problems, to correct issues, to policy, whatever. And right now, you know, with women both literally and being taken off the stand, there's not that level of partnership like so many women would want. And I what are your feelings about that and having uh back at the decision-making tables?

Bradford: 8:15

Um, well, I think it's super valuable. I think back when I was uh I so I've been an elders quorum and I've been a young men's president, young men's leader. And you know, it's honestly the opportunities to interact with my counterpart were not very often. And we're dealing with so many issues and logistics, and it's easy to get very wrapped up in your organization and what you're doing, and and not collaborating, not communicating as we could. So uh the opportunities to afford for better communication, interactions, I'm all for it because it it just helps uh the run more efficiently, uh more unitedly.

Heather: 9:20

Yeah. Well, and uh and here's a time that I'm thinking of when you did invite or include a woman at the table, and that was in the 90s when you were the Sunday School president and you for um a woman to join your presidency as the secretary. Was it just normal for that to happen?

Bradford: 9:44

Uh I don't know if I don't think it was normal. I think I was a little abnormal. So, um, but that was not a a consistent or or very frequently done thing. I saw it as an opportunity to help nurture her um as she had away from the church for quite some time. And this provided a safe opportunity, uh a safe environment her to uh be involved and learn more uh since she had been for so long. And and I didn't see any conflict, any issues with uh having mixed gender presidency. Um you know, I've looked at it as an opportunity to uh serve her and let her serve others in the ward. Um, and it worked wonderfully, and then it was not too that that the policy came out where you can't have mixed presidencies. I was like, dang, that's that's really unfortunate because it was a wonderful, wonderful um presidency that we had. It worked really, really well.

Heather: 11:05

And why do you feel like it worked so well? Because you know, you said initially it was to kind of bring into the fold and and mentor her, but um is that all that or do you feel like having her there added value to you?

Bradford: 11:26

Oh, I I believe it added value to me and and to our I it's you get someone with a completely different perspective in a in a number of ways. Um not just because it's a female member with uh you know three two with three male members, um, but she could also from the perspective of not being active in the church. And you know, what are some needs that need to be addressed that aren't being addressed? So and you know, you know me, I'm constantly wanting input other people. I don't feel like I have all the right answers, and and so constantly searching for input um and diverse input. So she was the secretary because she wasn't allowed to be one of the counselors, but uh just because she was the secretary, and this has been true in all the presidencies that I've run, um, I view all members of the presidency on equal ground. You know, I they have a voice, I want their voice. Uh it's super valuable.

Heather: 12:46

I'll just share what I remember from that time, and and when she first started coming to church, she would wear a and jeans and um tennis shoes or boots or something. And because that was literally all she had. She did not own a dress when she started coming to church, she had very long hair, hadn't wasn't real trimmed, you And it was interesting because when you called her to be a of this presidency in the Sunday School, um, I saw a physical change in her. I saw her style her hair. She got a haircut and it was more styled. I saw her wearing more what we would call Sunday best or church clothes, I would say. And I just saw her demeanor change, and and I think what I in her was like, I belong here, I'm part of this group. And I I know she just respected you so much and just up to you, but um, but not in a unapproachable way. I felt like it was more like, oh, he sees me for who I am, and so I want to be that kind of a person. And we had some really good chats, and I think you just I think it was a turning point for her in her reactivation to be into that presidency from what I observed on the outside.

Bradford: 14:15

Oh, that's great. Well, and and I remember her coming to church, you know, in and not not the Sunday typical Sunday attire, right? And that didn't matter to me. Uh uh who cares? Um and the the fact that she hadn't been active, who cares? It's let's look to the future and move forward. And um I mean if she kept coming in jeans or pants or whatever that didn't matter. Um what matters is what relationship are you developing with Christ. That's the important thing, and and so whatever it can do to with that, that's what matters.

Heather: 15:08

Yeah, I would be shocked if I found out that you had said to okay, well you're in the presidency now, so go to the store, and get yourself a dress. Like that's just not you. You would never speak to someone like that. Right. But somehow she just over time, you know, I think wanted to um feel more like the group. But I hope she felt like she belonged no matter what she because I I think we were we were pretty it was a great ward out in Texas. And I you know, she comes in jeans. I don't remember a single soul ever saying anything to her her clothing, ever. I hope that happened. I hope that's true. Well, I one thing I just really appreciate about you is I felt like I've been in a partnership with you. Um, I've never felt like you were someone I had to obey or to, or um, you know, you've never said, well, this is how it's gonna be. I've always felt like we've been equal in decision making in our lives and in our home and parenting and any aspect of our I've and I feel like because we listen to each other and together, we I think we come up with better answers as a

Bradford: 16:40

Well, thank you. Uh thank you for saying that. And that's also been my feeling. Uh like I said earlier, I don't have the answers and I'm seeking, and you know, I want the best for you, I want the for me, and the only way we accomplish that is by collaborating together, not either one of us dictating. And and you know what you said about me is also true for you. It's we care about each other, and we so we don't rule with fists. Um that's not progress, that's not being unified, that's not it's unproductive.

Heather: 17:29

And you know, even though I load the dishwasher wrong, you just quietly reload it. You never say anything to me. You just I've never heard you once say, don't put that there. That's not how to do it. You're doing it wrong. I just I throw things in like like the kitchen just had an and you just quietly go in and move things around and it.

Bradford: 17:59

It's TMI.

Heather: 18:04

Well, I know you do it because when I unload, I'm like, not how I loaded it.

Bradford: 18:12

Oh, that's funny.

Heather: 18:13

But I but even then you don't make me feel less than or I would love to see more of that in a church setting where it's it's not, oh, we need to be in complete agreement or we need to be doing the exact same task, but more like let's learn from other, let's work together, and then to get then we can come up with a better solution that neither of us alone could have come up with. I would love to see more of that. Um thank you, dude.

Bradford: 18:46

Absolutely, woman. This has been so fun. I love it. I love you.

Heather: 18:53

Love you too.