The Approachable Jesus
We never read about Jesus checking His emails or sitting in traffic. The better we know Him in His world, the more approachable He is in ours.
The Approachable Jesus
Women on the Stand Began With a No
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Amy Jensen's first reaction to being invited onto the stand was to say no. It sounded like one more assignment. Her daughters' reaction changed her mind, and she saw how it changed the ward to see who leads.
Then came another no. She was told she could no longer sit with the male leadership on the stand. That is where Women on the Stand began.
Heather and Amy discuss how symbolically sitting on the stand signals that women are part of leadership, not simply observers. They also discuss how women can join men in collaborative partnership in work, families, and at church.
Follow Amy on Substack: https://substack.com/@womenonthestand
Follow Amy on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/womenonthestand/
Join Amy and McArthur Krishna in Southern Italy: https://www.reliqtravel.com/tours/becoming
The Approachable Jesus is a Times of Faith production. Opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official stance of the podcast.
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Original Music by Johnathan B. Pack
She was terrified. She was young. She was inexperienced. That's where Jesus was. Jesus was in that hospital room in a way that I had never before.
Heather:I'm Heather Ruth Pack, and this is The Approachable Jesus, a of Faith production. Jesus can feel distant. The people of the Bible lived in a different world, a time, but their times of faith weren't all that different ours. And that's what we're gonna talk about. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to The Approachable Jesus. I'm Heather Ruth Pack, and with me today is Amy Jensen. Thank you so much for joining me, Amy.
Amy:Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here, Heather.
Heather:I've been looking forward to this day for so long. So let me tell you all a little bit about Amy. She's a mother to three girls. She's an educator in multiple ways as a writer, a high humanities teacher, and the creator of Women on the Stand. She lives with her husband Andy and their youngest daughter in the San Francisco Bay Area. You can find her on Instagram, Substack, and visit her womenonthestand.org, and I'll have links in the show notes. So, first of all, Amy, I owe you a thank you, not just for here today, which I'm so thrilled that you are, but also I like I need to thank you for the title of my book, Midwives Jesus.
Amy:Okay, tell me more.
Heather:Let me tell you why. So the title was born out of an article that I wrote for your um your platform, Women on the Stand. And when I was submitting materials to my editor, that was one of the things I submitted to her was this article I'd written for you. And well, for your readers. And she saw it and just said, that's the thread. That's the the line. And you always have been such a great inspiration for me on articles that I write because you do, I think, such a of being in touch with what the women that are following you and the men that are following you, what they're thinking, what feeling, what experiences they're having. And as a result of that, that's what caused me to just kind consider this idea of would Mary really have given birth to alone? And and I just it's just hard for me to think of the women in the home saying, Oh, you're in labor? Well, good luck. I think there's a you know a place where the animals sleep, go try that. Um I just don't see women um treating Mary that way. And I feel like you've created this community where the are supportive, like midwives are.
Amy:Oh, well, thanks for saying that. I love the title, I think it's a beautiful title. I'm feel honored that I have any sort of connection to it at all. And um I love that idea of yeah, if you take yourself to that right? Wherever Christ was born, whether it was in a cave or a stable bottom floor of a house, you know, all these it doesn't matter you think about the location as much as you think about the and you think about how women react when other women are going any kind of labor, right? We are so um, I think women are particularly good at understanding our interdependence and our interconnectedness. And I have a really hard time too imagining that the women of the household would not have been at her side helping her and through that labor. I totally agree with you. And I don't think I I I appreciated your article so much I never thought about that. It's something I'd never imagined before. So thank you for that. That it's it has made me think about it often since then.
Heather:Well, yeah, and let's talk about women and labor. And I don't mean just, you know, in the pains of giving birth, but just women struggling. Um tell me about women on the stand and how it began. And I was looking at your um website, I was shocked. It's not even three years old that this event happened. Isn't that crazy? In some ways, I feel like you've been in my life forever and been influencing me and inspiring me for so long, but in ways, it feels like it was a minute ago that this issue even up. So tell us about that. How did that begin?
Amy:Yeah, so in the Bay Area where I live, in the San Francisco Bay years and years and years ago, our we had a stake presidency that was considering what they needed to do better to make sure were in full partnership with women. And um, and they were prayerful about it, thoughtful about it, and they made a list of things that they wanted bishops and wards to be doing to better integrate women in many ways into the ward and into the stake experience and into um the the vibrancy of the ward and and our the church experience here in the Bay Area. And one of the things on that list was have women leadership on the stand. Invite them to sit on the stand. And at the time, I was a young women's president and in my ward, the bishop offered this to us, and my immediate reaction was no you. I do not want one more thing to do. I am not interested in that at all. But for some reason it had like a little bit of a like a niggle, in my brain, and I couldn't let it go. And like I thought, well, did I say no too quickly to this thing that the bishop was asking me to do? And so I I took it to my young women. I just asked them. One of my daughters was a young woman at the time. I asked her and some of her friends, hey, this is one of the the that the stake has. What do you think about it? And their reaction floored me. They were like, oh my gosh, that would be amazing. Yes, please. Like, we want to see it was really clear to me that they had, maybe, you know, I'm not sure they were conscious of it before, like the the thought of having a woman on the stand really meant to them. Like they could be represented, they could see themselves reflected back from the stand. And so um, it became and many things happened in those years' but uh it took a while for our ward to adapt that practice, to that practice. Sorry. And um, and it wasn't until I was young women's president yet after the pandemic that we became that we just started doing practice in our ward. And it was really meaningful to the young men and the women, and it was great for the whole ward, right? It was a reminder of that women are on councils, that they're there women and men are in united leadership, that we're making together, that we're contributing, that we're that we're truly a ward family. And it's not just some, you know, somebody at the top who's all the decisions and and no input from women. It was really important in many, many ways. It was also important for like the women that were sitting on the stand for us to be able to look out and see the congregation in a way that was that we weren't unable to do when we were sitting in the pews. It was also important for recognition, not in the way of like, you did a good job, not that kind of recognition, but like actual recognition. Who is the young women's president in the ward? Who is the Relief Society president? And in our ward, we rotated. In some other wards, in my stake, it was always the Relief president that sat on the stand and other stakes around here. That was, but in our ward, we rotated.
Heather:Um and let me let me stop you for a second. I want to just pause in the timeline right now and and try and get a sense of what's happening. First of all, tell me physically where on the stand are For those who are not LDS, what do you mean by on the stand?
Amy:Oh, that's a good question. So on the stand itself, there's the pulpit, and then there's it's flanked by chairs. It's kind of like a stage, right? There's choir seats in the back, but the the three men in the typically sit on one of the sides of the pulpit, and then the who are speaking that day sit on the other side of the pulpit. In our ward and stake, the young women's president or the president or the primary president would sit next to the And not in the seats where because they weren't speaking that They were just up there representing.
Heather:So as you're facing the pulpit, at least in the I've attended, the leadership is to the right of the I'm facing it. And those participating as um giving lay sermons or you know, talks or musical numbers typically are sitting on the left of the pulpit. So you're literally at the same, you're not sitting behind the male leadership. You're literally sitting on the same level right next to as if you are um another bishop or counselor, say you're just right in line. Bomb bum bum.
Amy:That I was going to do with that.
Heather:But we were just sitting there that way to those who did not maybe how the structure worked. You know, say someone outside of the LDS faith walked in said, We're the leaders. Oh, they're on the right of the pulpit.
Amy:They would just know that they were that women were part of Not knowing what callings they hold or no positions they hold.
Heather:Yeah.
Amy:Just because they were part of leadership, right?
Heather:So I'm curious at this time, um, are you receiving any or any pushback from the members as you're sitting up on the Like, why are you up there? Or who told you to do that?
Amy:No, because it was a practice already in a stake. And also the bishop was very clear when we started sitting up He stood up and said, We're we're welcoming, you know, Sister on the stand. She, as representative of a representative member of our ward So he made it clear that that's what it was about. Um so no, it wasn't, there was no pushback or anything like that. And like I said, it is a practice not only in our stake, but stakes as well around here.
Heather:Okay. All right. Now take us to that inciting incident, as people say.
Amy:So um there was a our at the time, our area president who is for those who are not members of the church, I don't really know to describe it, somebody who's like in local leadership, but at a higher level. But this is like at a regional level, right? Um he basically went to a stake conference in a different part of his region, I think somewhere in Oregon, and there was women on stand at that stake conference, and he basically thought the stand looked too crowded. That's what he said. It didn't look right. And so then he took it back to his advisors and decided that it was not a good thing to do, and then and then told our stake to take all the women off the stand, not only in the local Sunday meetings, but also in ward conferences and stake conferences, where it had been a practice for w such a long time. And it still is a practice in many other places, but in our place we can't we can no longer do that in our stake.
Heather:And so there are currently women sitting on stands in other of the world within the LDS church.
Amy:There are. It's a very regional, I think that's that's mostly not happening, but I have heard from several people, continue to hear from them, like, oh yeah, women are on the stand in this stake in Chicago, or they're on the stand in this place in Oklahoma, or in you know, they're doing it this way, or you know, so or so I hear from parts of the world that that that there are places where it's happening, but in general it's not.
Heather:Okay, and and not in your region in the explicitly we're not to here. Yeah, it was it wasn't just oh, we don't practice it, it was we were told not to. Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So let me kind of jump to where I found you. I just remember you um had created this open letter to the um headquarters in Salt Lake City, which we call the general Go ahead and tell us about that open letter.
Amy:Yeah, so the letter I wrote, because I didn't know what else to right? Because there's not like a great way to provide feedback. We we we had done, I talked to all the local leadership and had it up the chain, and everyone at locally was in agreement, right? They uh it wasn't like an issue here, it was somewhere up the chain that we couldn't quite figure out why it was happening. So I wrote an open letter and I address it to actually to the stake, I'm sorry, to the general young women's president, general Relief Society president, and general general primary president, um, and it to them specifically saying, hey, you know, you sit on the stand at general conference. Um, I know that you are our advocates, I know that you represent And I so I wrote it to them specifically. Um, and it was really a letter about how beneficial it was for the flourishing of our stake and the thriving of our stake as a and and for this whole area as a whole, and um was sort of to them what the practice was and why it was and how beautiful it was and how fruitful it was, and asking them for their advocacy help.
Heather:Okay. And how was that received?
Amy:Um, so by the general public, like really well. I mean, like the lots and lots of people, thousands of people it, and it was great. I was not expecting that. I was that was why I started the Instagram account in the first because I thought, well, I gotta figure out a way to get this there. So I started the Instagram account. Um and you know, most people that I had positive feedback in The general women's presidencies never and I didn't ever feedback from them personally, other than that I had uh that one of the counselors in the Young Women presidency happened to come my stake and she just said, Oh yeah, you know, we've read it and you for that, and you're doing great work, and was really positive about it.
Heather:Okay, but there had never been any formal acknowledgement of of letter or response.
Amy:Yeah, and I and I don't know that I was I don't know that I was there to be. Um, I don't know, were you expecting I I I I know that some who signed it were expecting that. Were you expecting there to be?
Heather:Frankly, no. Yeah, no. When your open letter came, it took me 2.2 seconds to decide to sign it. I mean, it was just a no-brainer for me because I guess I it as an opportunity to at least increase awareness, like you say, if not to the general leadership, at least to the general membership. Right. Which I think it did.
Amy:I think it definitely did, yeah, for sure. There was definitely a greater uh awareness. And where people came down on what they thought about it, well, different. But but I think there was definitely an awareness. And I think it and I I mean, I hope, I believe that it has pushed conversations forward just a tiny bit. Um, and I think that's all any of us can do is is contribute in the way we feel called to contribute. And um, and that's what it feels very much to me like a calling use my voice and um and do what we can do. None of us are gonna be able to change the whole thing or and we even be able to, and when it really comes down to it. But I think all of us can play a big part in shifting of culture expectations and norms and thought. And um and I think that that starts, you know, in the broader Sometimes we expect it to be this hierarchical um that the change must come from the top. But as I understand it, it rarely comes from the top until lots of discussion in the general church first.
Heather:Yeah, I in my experience that's absolutely true. So my background is a master's in public administration we've studied governmental, um, nonprofit religious not a corporate structure. And how does change begin? And I remember I was teaching at BYU, and half of my um at this night class I was teaching were employed by the And so I had a lot of you know executives in in the church. And I remember I was teaching when the age change the missions in 2012, when young men could go at 18 and girls could go at 19. Is that right? Am I getting the that's right? And and so it was interesting for me because my in my students had to create projects. But one of my students um worked for the mission department, he said to me, We have been studying this and researching this for 10 years. What what the impact of an age change would be. We have been doing pilot programs in different countries the world, and they had been drafting proposals to the And I think at the time I kind of had this idea of President walking to work one day or kneeling by his bed one night, and the heavens opened up and said, Right, yeah, change the age, know. And what I discovered in working with these individuals is not, yeah, this was very researched, very thought out.
Amy:Yeah.
Heather:Very many people were consulted in this decision. And it's like President Nelson says, good information leads good inspiration. And I I saw that firsthand. And I think what I see in you is I'm here to provide good
Amy:Yeah.
Heather:And to help aid and facilitate that great inspiration.
Amy:Yeah, and I think that I mean, a lot of the what I'm trying to do, and I think that you're also trying to do this, Heather, is have Have real conversations, have conversations that are sometimes conversations, have conversations about what we can be but also what we're doing well. Have conversations about where the pain points are, right? Have conversations about um about how lonely we often feel when see something that we think nobody else sees. And all those conversations are important. It seems like, oh, it's just talking. It's not just talking, right? It's it's being real and open and vulnerable and inviting a broader conversation. And I think that that's I I'm trying to provide information, but provide not just my own information, right? Like my own experience, but open it up to other people's And and I've learned so much from other people's contributions to the conversation. Things that my brain has been opened up, my mind has been opened my heart has been opened up in ways that I could not have fathomed before I delved into the work.
Heather:So one thing I've noticed over the three years is um it feels like the conversation, like you say, has absolutely opened up. It's not about whether women in leadership can sit on the side of a microphone anymore. Yeah. Or in addition to, I should say that hasn't necessarily gone but I feel like your megaphone or your content is so much expansive than just this open letter to the general saying, Hey, can you advocate for us here? We see a need. Yeah. At what point did you feel like the message of women on the was expanding or pivoting or you know, changing to some
Amy:Yeah, I mean, it's sort of it happened organically, right? Because uh that was a moment in time for sure, and that's where the conversation started. But, you know, as many voices have contributed to Women on the because it's not just my voice or your voice, it's many writers, many just sort of average, you know, Latter-day Saints who have to say. And and we published that on Women on the Stand as well, or that that Latter-day Saints have. And the conversation sort of naturally opened up because of that. Um, and as I started learning more about what the needs were, um, where the conversation might go, and also what was happening outside of the conversations that we're having that would push us in different directions too, right? So I think that it's been organic and natural. I can't really pinpoint a time when I knew that that was happening. Um, but I think from the very start, it sort of started to unfold that way.
Heather:I I will say this I feel like what I noticed as a big change a pivot was when you started sharing. your email and maybe you did that right away I'm not sure but I remember I remember the first time I had this opportunity to email you and actually say here's what I think and and you up sharing my email um on your Instagram page and and I you got some reactions to it and some comments and I think it opened up my eyes to this wait a minute there's a place where I can go and say something and someone hears me and I I don't even need to be agreed with frankly I just need to feel like been heard and and I noticed that once people could email you started sharing those emails and I would say most of them had nothing to do with sitting on the stand.
Amy:Most of them didn't yeah I I I think that from yeah I don't know I started doing that it was pretty early on right it was where I hey what else do you want to be talking you know share an email with me I'll publish another woman on the stand or let's have a or reach out you know so because I always had the sense that is not about me right this is not Amy Jensen and my soapbox sometimes I'm sure it feels that I mean I do have my I I I it's platform and I use it. Yeah um but but I always have had the sense that it's it's it's it's a community that we're trying to build together. This is for this is amplifying everybody's voice not just my voice. I don't I think that's a pretty boring place to be is just talking about what I think. You know I we need to have the experiences a broader a broader of of what's happening in the pews. And the only way to do that is to hear the voices of many saints.
Heather:Yeah I um one thing I see you talk a lot uh talk about at and it's a topic that I feel like in my opinion is a running through the content that you create but I also see you put it into practice and that's collaborative partnership. And and I see you putting I guess you know to coin a phrase your money where your mouth is in that I see you advocating for partnership within the church organizational structure but see you modeling what that partnership looks like in how you to people who criticize you or push back on something you say um we're all looking at how you comment and I would say you in a very collaborative partnership way.
Amy:You don't quickly discount you don't quickly say well I disagree here's why I see you stopping to consider their point of view and um do you want to speak to that and what it's like when you're jumping on Instagram and responding to someone's comment you I I thank you for saying that that actually means a lot to me that um that you put it that way I do think I am trying to model what what I'm talking about in my comments in when I'm inviting other to share their voices in um the content that I create um I am trying to to model collaboration and partnership and one of the ways that we do that is by actually trying to hear each other. I really don't um understand a stance that says I must be heard but I will not hear yeah that that that doesn't make any sense to me not that's never going to be constructive and um people don't what I have to say all the time and I don't I think that's fine. I think that's good actually I want to be I don't want to be you know that's different. I mean of course of course yeah there's that I sort of just go like I mean years of teaching children has made me sort of you numb to that anyway I'm like whatever I don't really care what have to do that's fine. But when people have like genuine criticism right and they it I I'm grateful for that criticism because that's feedback I need and it's helping helping me to understand even if I never with that point of view it's still helping me understand the of view of somebody else. Yeah and that's incredibly valuable feedback and and and it me and there have been times when I've been convinced of that I didn't think I would be convinced of after having a with somebody else. And I I think that's really important. If we really want our friction to be constructive and we need to move forward like there's no if we just all agree about and are just nice that's not that's not building Zion right we're going nowhere that way we need friction. We need to be able to be in conflict with each other in ways. We need to be able to disagree and not just disagree nicely it's okay to disagree passionately and I and I and still consider what the other person is saying.
Heather:Absolutely and I think um something I have noticed within my little you know institute with my students and and in my neck of the woods is how easy it is to be scared of that Yeah or what I would call conflict because there's they're so scared of it becoming contention and and in our religious we are very much against contention it's in our scriptures we should avoid it and I think we almost swing so far away avoiding contention that we feel like we then must also avoid conflict. Because if we don't conflict with each other there's no gonna have a contentious um you know words being said that you later regret but um but it's okay to feel that passion and so strongly in what you're believing in. And it's okay if someone in the room passionately doesn't agree we don't have to be mean to each other for that friction to
Amy:Yeah I think that curiosity is a really important uh principle when it comes to understanding how we we deal with conflict and not it lead to contention because I mean nobody wants contention I I I think that's right we don't want to be there are people um in online Latter-day Saints space that um that I think that they that they are looking for contention right that they that there's that they're so convinced of their own rightness that um that they not willing to be curious about anybody else's thoughts or and and I don't and I and I think that's a different I think they're they have different objectives. Yeah and but I think if you have an objective of really trying build and not tear down and really trying to be inclusive and to create more space rather than shrink it then we definitely do to avoid contention but we don't want to avoid conflict. And there's a it's it's hard it's a there's a fine line and and I think curiosity is the is that little dash of of the the something that we need to keep it out of contention if we're genuinely about the other person what the other person is saying.
Heather:I I heard some advice once that um if you are in disagreement with someone stop and and share with them their point of view. Say okay so what you're arguing is or what you're you know is and and say it as if it was them and say this is your stance or this is how you feel about it and then check in with them go, did I get that right? Yeah exactly because then because sometimes you might be something where it turns out both of you are in agreement on you just don't realize it because it's gotten so emotionally or contentious. And and I thought that was really good advice to just kind of take a temperature check and go, wait a minute, let me make I understand your side first before I start jumping in with I think I'm right and you're wrong. You know?
Amy:Yeah. A hundred percent I think that's great advice.
Heather:So when you talk about objectives what let's let's fast three more years. Now women on the stand is six years old instead of three years old. What how do you envision it three years from now? What objectives or goals do you have for um this community I I that's a great question and I don't know that I have like a stated objective of like this is we are going to be if A, B, or C thing happens. Right.
Amy:I I think that that in sort of the grand scheme of things what on the stand is attempting is a cultural shift in thinking right is to help to help us have this cultural shift of how can we think broadly about collaborative partnership? How do we implement that well at church? How do we believe our own theology that that our theology Heavenly Parents right and that we have equal partnership in the but also that we need to then take that to church too right that not just in the heavens and the home but full partnership matters at church right and and like having these conversations in ways are helping us expand rather than contract and shrink or uh or of get into our little hidey holes of of uh you know like of right because we can be in these tribes where it's like well this kind of person I'm this kind of Latter-day Saint and I disagree with this kind of Latter-day Saint. And and so I think it I think that that's the attempt of is just to keep pushing forward conversations. You know I don't know what's going to be the topic of discussion six in three years. I don't know but I hope that that we're still having that I my is that women on the stand and those that are participating in on the stand and writing for women on the stand and commenting um that we're still doing it in a way that is that that is pushing thoughtful respectful unflinching conversations and we're with I always say like I'm gonna be respectfully relentless for rest of my life and I and I believe that whether I'm doing it in or not there's a relentlessness that I think that we need to have if we are going to uh if we're gonna participate in this kind of
Heather:Yeah yeah I I love that idea of being respectfully and and sometimes when I think about um the women who were in Jesus's discipleship that's kind of how I see them in a lot of ways especially you know the ones who like the women who Jesus or the ones who witnessed his resurrection and the believe them what I find so powerful in their stories is that we find out at the Pentecost after Jesus's ascension to they're still there yeah they didn't give up they didn't go then I'm out of here you know and and that's a very powerful to me is to hear their see their names and see that they were they stuck around when I think I I I'll be honest I think I have been pretty offended if I had come into that room and guess what I saw Jesus he is resurrected and they went we believe you we're locking the doors we think we're next I have been like what what and um and so for you to talk about respectfully relentless I think we have so many women in the who can be examples to us of that but I think we can also be to each other of that and that's something that I find so about your platform is you are give like you say you're giving voice to many people's perspectives so we're all learning each other and seeing it in action today.
Amy:Yeah and what that looks like I I love what you're pointing to when you're talking about you know women are witnesses we've always called as witnesses to Christ right and I think that that loops nicely to your thought about midwives to Jesus right because um other people's pain is something that women do really well and not just sitting there but being there helping using our wisdom and knowledge our own experiences to help other women labor they are going through and witnessing that labor and and and being able to witness not just their pain but also help them them back to Christ guide them to Christ and and I think women do that exceptionally well and we need more of that I when when I about being a midwife to Jesus I think about one of the most sacred times in my life was when I was Andy had just gotten called to be the branch president of a young single adult ward and I was like not 30 if I was 30 I don't know we were young and we I was having kids and um we loved that experience it was our the best of our lives everyone whoever who has ever served in a YSA ward that by the way this is not singular to us. Everybody loves it it is the most wonderful time and there was a woman at the time who got pregnant and decided to give her for adoption and she asked me to go to with with her to her and I got to be there she called me when she was in labor and to be with her she was terrified she was young she was she knew what God wanted her to do she knew that God wanted her to give this precious baby to another family and that woman was in the room the woman who was gonna then receive this most gift and I got to be to be there to witness that kind of love sacrifice that's where Jesus was Jesus was in that hospital room a way that I had never experienced before and and you know hours of labor right she was I just remember I mean we were there all night and um I think of that as just a sacred time like one the most sacred moments of my life because you know we all jumped in right we're making her comfortable we're trying to distract by you know telling funny jokes or or where we're holding her hand when she's crying out witnessing being there for her. And I think women do that so well and we don't just do it for women we do it for men too it's never a zero sum game right it's not like bring more women in and men are gonna lose out bring more in and women are going to think of their sons they're gonna think of their husbands they're gonna think of everybody and and and that labor and witness how we witness Christ in all of those and so to me that is such it's so symbolic of what I think you and I and so many other women are trying to do we're trying to witness right we're trying to say like hey we've got we've got some really important ideas women do women have really important wisdom and important knowledge of Christ and and and and we just want to be the table yeah and I a couple of thoughts coming to my mind I the first one is just as you're describing this very sacred tender moment where you're with the two mothers of this baby in this and you're seeing just an incredible sacrifice about to take
Heather:As a midwife as someone who's holding the hand of someone in I think we know more than anyone we can't take that pain away no we can't minimize it we can't diminish it we can't say well if you would just pray and read your scriptures the contract contractions aren't going to be so bad. We know that's not the formula we know that's not how it But yet we we will be them with we will be with them in their pain. Yeah and um and I think something I see you do with your is um you acknowledge people's pain. You don't diminish it you don't say well you know if you just went to the temple more this wouldn't be so bad or and and me that's a true midwife is like I get this hurts.
Amy:Yeah I get that this is hard and I'm not leaving your side and also not gonna leave your side in the joy either. Yeah right because I think that like a lot of times we we want to separate the two right it's like we either have joy or pain. Yeah but often it's like all at once messy and uh hard to sift and we're it's intense emotion and we're gonna laugh and cry with you right and I think that that's what Christ wants us to do other.
Heather:We want he's he's there in our joy and our pain and we're that for each other too so as you talk about you know this idea of being midwives in a religious setting um being coming to table and claiming our spot in a very real way what do you see that actually looking like in a yeah and and not just our I I don't want to just say the LDS church needs to do it. I I think many religious institutions and organizations, I some are at different levels of collaborative partnership, what would you love to see this look like for all religions who want to have it?
Amy:Yeah I I always think about I'm gonna not remember her name right now but there was a nun that she was interviewed by a woman um American broadcaster during the last um uh choosing of the last pope I don't know if you remember this she was all over the place she on Instagram and she was she was just the most darling American that was at the Vatican and she was being interviewed by this other American woman and they asked her some questions and one of the that she said is that women just want to be part of the and I think that's it in a nutshell we just want to be part of solutions. We just want to build Zion by your side yeah we just want to be partner and I don't know that I am the person that knows exactly that looks like even for the Latter-day Saints I but I do know we need it. I do know that with strength the strength that comes with that.
Heather:And it might look different in every single table. I mean there's no prescriptive here's where to sit to say here's what percent of the conversation the women should take up I think every table's gonna have a different because doesn't every table have different problems to address and to look at yeah yeah yeah that's totally that's a really point. Well let's talk a little bit about um what you've got coming with your life and and some women on the stand themes do you some exciting projects coming up or anything?
Amy:Yeah I'm working on a project right now that's like a toolkit for um counseling together. So serving together um men and women in the church serving together um I'm working with some amazing women on this and up and men hopefully the next I'm hoping by the end of September that's gonna be out and ready for everybody. So that's some that's one thing to be um that I'm super excited I think could be you really useful um because sometimes we don't we want to we might even be in leadership men and women we're like I want to be a collaborative partner but I'm not sure how to show up that way. Yeah. And so this is just like simple tools to help us do better. Right now, nothing needs to change in the structures or This is just tools for what right now.
Heather:Working with working with the resources we already have to us. Yeah.
Amy:Working under the circumstances that we already have. Right. Exactly.
Heather:So um when these when this toolkit comes out, how are people to be able to find it?
Amy:Um it'll all uh you can always go to women on the stand to point to where it's gonna be. It's probably not gonna live just on women on the stand. We're working with some other organizations I can't talk about now yet. Okay, but okay. Um but definitely you can see it at um women on the stand. It'll we'll be able to direct you to those resources. Yeah, and I'm guessing your Substack would you'll be announcing Yeah, for sure. Okay on Instagram, Substack will be able to point you to that. So that's one project I'm really excited about. Yeah.
Heather:Yeah, that's I'm I honestly that's something I'm incredibly about. I I'm always um I always think it's important to give people or resources or anything to so that they can just feel more to do what it is they already want to do.
Amy:Exactly. Exactly, right? It's not that we're not trying to beat uh anyone over the head with just the way we think about things or way we want things to do. It's like, no, no, no, here's some resources to do the thing that you actually are feeling called to do.
Heather:Yeah. And then I I believe you have something coming up in 2027 in springtime. Tell us about that.
Amy:So there's a trip with Relic Travel that we're going to southern and McArthur Krishna and I are going to be there on this trip. It's this like designed trip that is gonna be just for 16 of us, think. And it's gonna be amazing, and we're gonna be talking about how to cultivate joy. And Italy is a pretty darn good place to talk about cultivating joy if you would ask.
Heather:Well, I know, I know I'm I'm pretty happy when I have an pizza in.
Amy:Exactly. It's pretty it's a pretty easy sell that joy when you're in Italy eating pizza and gelato.
Heather:Yeah, yeah. Well, and I I love this idea of cultivating joy. And I think sometimes we tend to think joy either happens to or it doesn't happen to us. That's right. Yeah. But um, so what advice would you give to someone who says, more joy in my life. I want to cultivate that. How do I do that?
Amy:Yeah, I think that there's um, I think that there is, you know, person's different, obviously. But I think that sometimes we think of we conflate joy with this sort of fleeting happiness. You know, we want like you we want to be happy, and we don't even know what does that even mean. But joy is so much like deeper and richer and more profound. And joy can also be resistance to what's going on in the world, the pain we have in our lives. It actually it's it's an act of resistance. And so I think that that's that's like where I hold joy right is of I will not um be intentional about cultivating joy things that are joyful to me. And and it's like we said, it's work. I mean, there's some things that I know I need that I it's not gonna happen to me. For example, I need to be with my friends, my lady friends, at once a week. So we play mahjong once a week with some of my friends, and we get together and we know we're getting together every week, and we dinner together, and we laugh, and it's my friends from you know I've known for years and years. I'm not they're not Latter-day Saints, none of them are. Most of them are Jewish. Um, and but we've known each other and we've raised our kids and they're like my tribe, and it takes work to get together every week. You have to be intentional, and that is joy when I'm in communion with my friends, with those women who bring me so much um, not like so much um meaning to my life. And I have to be, I could just be like, I'll see them when I see No, you have to be intentional about cultivating your joy. So I think that's my best advice is like figure out the thing is bringing you the most joy. Like what is so what is meaningful to you, and then be about receiving it as often as you can, right? And put the work in to making those things happen.
Heather:I yeah, I heard this advice once, and I think it's kind of true is set appointments with yourself or um quote a meeting with put it on your calendar so then when other demands come, you say, Oh, I'm sorry, I can't, I have an appointment at that Or I have a meet, I have a meeting. Yes. They're not gonna ask you, well, what who's your appointment What are you doing? You know, they're not gonna question it. But I think just I think what it communicates to your own is my time is just as valuable for me as it is for other And I deserve to be with me and cultivating that joy. And if I have to make an appointment in my calendar to do it, I'm gonna do it.
Amy:100%. I have to do that with my writing because writing gives me also gives me pain. Yeah, you know, like there's some struggle sometimes, but but it's it's a practice that that brings joy to me. And if I'm not intentional about setting aside time to write, happens. And I feel that it's the same with like exercising for me, or like there's so I mean, we all have these examples in our life of the that like sustains us and brings us joy, and it's different brings us, it's not just fleeting happiness, it's like right? Yeah, and and so being being intentional and doing the work to those things into your life and cultivating that. And if you don't have something, if you're like, oh my have a great group of friends right now, even though I would want that, you know, I like everyone's in lots of different you know. So, you know, figure it, figure out what other things that can, you know, start that work. Be intentional about those friends and and inviting, you know, so many things that we can do. None of it is all it's not always easy, and I think that's even in some ways. We all I don't think we're so used to it being easy, but sometimes joy is just a little bit more work, and that's okay. Yeah, yeah.
Heather:Well, Amy, it has been an absolute joy to talk to you today. I feel it. I just I just feel like I could drink in everything you have say and just let it kind of soak. Same to you, Heather.
Amy:Same to you. I adore you. You know, I am so and I'm so excited that you're doing this I'm so excited to promote it in any way I can because you're one of the wise women in my life. So thank you for being the one of the wise women in my life and for all that you do for everybody that you touch. I really appreciate you.
Heather:Well, and and I appreciate the work that you do as a midwife, honestly, just delivering the good news to people and buoying them up even in their pain and letting them know that there is someone rooting for them and and by their side. And that's a powerful example for all of us to follow.
Amy:So well, back at you 100%. Thanks, Heather. I appreciate it.
Heather:Okay, thank you, Amy. Thanks for joining me at The Approachable Jesus. Please share this episode with a friend. That's how these conversations find the people who My newsletter, current course offerings, and all my latest are at timesoffaith.com. Remember, Jesus is closer and more approachable than you